Shay McCartan

And weve just signed a lad on loan from Wolves who is said to have all the qualities of a very good winger, bet Wolves will be delighted.

 

We have three or four young lads upfront who will st some stage warrant first team action if they are going to be developed. My assessment of signing Sherwin was if he gets in front of Robinson or Gibson then he is denying one of our potential assets game time.

 

Do you mean Seedorf, yes the very thing that Edin said he didn't want to do at the club, develop other clubs youngsters.

 

You've gone from justifying the leeway Mcarten is getting by telling me he's "achieved" something in the game to then telling me that it doesn't matter what I think of his achievements, he's atleast done "something". Apart from conveniently changing the goalposts, it's also ridiculously weak reasoning. Patrick worked his way ahead of Mcarten in the pecking order through merit, looked bright in his first few games, scored a couple of excellent goals and had played at a higher level than Mcarten at an earlier age. I don't rate either of them but I'd argue that's "something".

No one has given me a valid answer to my original question without contracting themselves in one way or the other. Mcarten should be given a chance because he didn't get enough game time but other players who also didn't get much game time such as Raedar, Sattelmair and Patrick shouldn't. Also Mcarten should be given a chance because he's done "something" but other players who have also done something such as Patrick again, or Poleon if you are after someone who's done it at this level don't seem to get the same backing of fans. Basically, just picking and choosing who we should support based on very little, but demanding we get behind them anyway despite not doing it for other players in the same position.

 

That's not changing the goalposts at all. It's completely consistent, a player who has shown they have got some type of ability will get more leeway that a player who hasn't.

Now I haven't said he should be given a chance or demanding you get behind anyone. I'm just pointing out that logically McCarten may have just had a poor year following making decent achievements (like Marshall, Morris and McNulty in recent times) but players like Patrick have done nothing at City but also nothing before that.

You asked what the difference is and I pointed one out.

 

You need therapy for your anti edin complex. You really do.

 

It is changing the goal posts. You mentioned how Mcarten gets more leeway because he's achieved something and when I argued against it, you then mentioned that irrespective of his achievements, he's done "something" which gives you more wiggle room with your arguement. As you went down that road, I argued that Patrick has done something too and gave reasons to back this up which you're yet to dispute.

As above, we'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes as "decent achievements". He has a mediocre goalscoring record and I've also seen nothing which convinces me that his all round play was any good either. I'm not saying the comparison with Patrick is identical but there are certainly a lot of similarities you can draw between the two to make it a valid comparison. Both have little to no prior track record of success , both making the step up and struggling, both showing the odd glimpse of talent here and there and if fans firmly believe that giving players a chance works to their advantage, then both should be encouraged.

I'll leave it here as I've said all I've needed to say on the topic .

 

How can I be changing the goalposts when I've literally used to same description of "something" twice.

He's scored 29 professional goals. Mostly in league 2 admittedly but it hints at some element of talent. Patrick doesnt even have 29 games. That's the difference you asked for.

I've seen nothing from McCarten either. From what I've seen he's utter dogshit but you don't score almost 30 goals or pick up international caps by accident. There is therefore a possibility that what we've seen from him isn't the full extent of his ability.

That's a much higher track record of success than a guy who hasn't even pulled on his boots in a professional game before this season.

 

I think I’d rather Robinson fill the role than any of the strikers that played last season. McCartan would only get another chance, for me, when (if) we played 3 up top

 

In your second post his 'achievements' weren't a factor. Achieving something (first post) and "something" (second post) aren't the same things. It's a very very vague term which gives you wiggle room if and when you need it. Mcarten's goalscoring record is poor by anyone's standards. If that's been used as evidence of him having more to give than again, then we'll agree to disagree. For me it only shows that he's not upto this level. Patrick and Mcarten are at different stages of their careers which is why one has inevitably played more games and scored a few more. If we are being fair they should be judged on the relative stages in their careers. Mcarten is 24 and has to start performing next season. No question about that. Patrick isn't far behind but still has a few years to mature and develop. Based on last season and their track records, I'd argue that whilst both underachieved, there wasn't an awful lot in when it comes to who underachieved the most in relation to the stages they are at in their careers. Not to the point where Mcarten deserves our backing and Patrick should be shunned out.

 

Nope. The something was exactly the same thing both times and has been the whole way through - 30ish professional goals and a couple of caps.

It's poor for a striker but still many, many times better than Patrick and I'm not actually convinced McCarten is a proper striker anyway.

Both played exactly the same here. Shit. However their overall carers indicate that McCarten has at least performed better than that previously. The garbage performances from Patrick actually represent his best ever season.

 

Ok, @Tawheed has been focusing on the wrong person to compare. Do you think we should be giving Dom Poleon the same 2nd chance as you want for McCartan..?

Using your words, Poleon “has scored 37 professional goals, mostly in League 1 admittedly but it hints at some element of talent”.

So should we show him the same leeway or not?

 

Because they are at different stages in their careers.

I will just add on, I completely understand the Patrick side of the argument. I've only defended him in relation to the low standards set for Mcarten. Ultimately though, I agree that has no track record of success, and produced very little to justify fans getting behind him. I'm not an Omari Patrick fan. It's the Mcarten part I don't really get. You've mentioned how Mcarten's overall career suggests that he's better than shit, but does it? His goalscoring and assist stats are shit and I've seen nothing concrete to suggest that his all round game is any decent, as most of our fans haven't.

Additionally, how would Mcarten scoring 30 league goals hint that he's got talent? I could name you so many poor strikers who have achieved that feat.

 

I was making that many comparisons with Mcarten and other average squad players I lost track. That is a good comparison though and precisely proves my point. Poleon has scored more league goals than Mcarten at a higher level and has very little ability. So why will Mcarten who's achieved less in the games somehow hint that he's got talent and justify fans supporting him?

 

Maybe it’s McCartan’s exuberance as opposed to Poleon’s.

Ah, hang on, they’re both 24 and Poleon has achieved more in their careers to date.

 

Wasn't this Patrick's first professional contract, if so the kid has had less than 1 season as a pro. He is not going to have a track record to compare stats with, come back in 12 months time and compare if you want a more informed debate.

 

I don't think people use stats to judge Patrick on. More the fact that he looks totally out of his depth at league 1 level. And at 22? It's hard to see him making it.

 

Whilst McCartan didn’t look at his depth? And at 24, is it also hard to see him making it too?

People are latching on to Patrick instead of a more like-for-like comparison

 

I agree McCarten was poor but I thought he did show glimpses of ability. I think we saw enough from him to suggest he could come good.

Patrick however, aside from 2 great goals still looks like a u18 player. Awful touch, poor positional play and terrible decision making.

If it was a case of giving one of them another chance, I'd choose McCarten all day long.

 

Can you?

Off you go Tawheed. Let's see a comprehensive list of many shit players who scored 30 goals by age 24.

I think you're underplaying how difficult it is to score goals at any professional level in England and I'm not sure judging him as a striker is completely accurate either.