Shay McCartan

Yep, same applies. If we were comparing Poleon to Patrick I'd rather give him another chance to prove he's better than he showed last year as well.

If we're going to go down the route of paying money for players such as this in the hope of developing them further we can't be chucking them away after one year.

 

New season, clean sheet as our coaching team said last week. If Poleon shows the right attitude in training he should get another chance. As fans we are all so fickle, if poleon or Shay play blinders in the first couple of games and bag a few goals we will be singing their praises, can’t see it ever happening but you don’t get a professional contract by having no discernible talent. This a make or break season in the careers of several of our squad.

 

Again, you're changing the goal posts. Age wasn't a factor in your previous post. You just said "29 league goals hints at talent" I could find you poor strikers who have scored 29 league goals. Besides, here is a mediocre list of strikers who had more or less achieved that landmark aged 24
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Zoko
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Proctor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cole_Stockton
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_Poleon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Bowery
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deane_Smalley
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Clarke_(footballer,_born_1987)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Alessandra
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hanson_(footballer,_born_1987)

I'm not saying it's easy to score goals at professional level but given that we're a professional football club and that he plays in an advanced position it's the least I'd expect. If you don't want to judge him on goals, find me something else that we could judge him on.

 

If thease guys are not worth giving a chance they should not be with the club simple as that. It needs to be a full on pre season to show there worth . If not stepping up offload or loan out.

 

But 'tis a good thing, no ? If Seedorf pushes our 'own' boys, then that can only be good if they too can push him back in the pecking order.

 

I agree - unless City aim to use the #10 position - I can't really see where McCartan actually fits. However, pre-season may well sort that out, and answer any questions.

 

I agree.
With a new 'coaching team' and philosophy, City should quickly learn those who remain, and who to ship out - pronto !

 

You're obsessed with me changing the goalposts but it's not the case. We're talking about McCarten so his age is clearly a factor....I thought it almost went without saying that it's easier to score 30 goals in a 4 year career than it is in a 14 year one.

I don't think many of the guys you list achieved the same criteria however most of them have had pretty solid careers.

Would I have any of them now.....no. However would I be giving up on any of them aged 24 after a single poor season....also no.

 

If they are being pushed by a lad who has no first team experience then i’d be worried. I’d expect both Gibson and Robinson to be ahead of him if they want to progress.

 

You said 29 league goals hints at talent. I disagreed because of the amount of poor strikers who have scored 29 league goals. Does the shorter time frame really go without saying? Your posts suggest differently. If the "achievement" in this case is doing it across a shorter period of time, why did you then play this down a post later and pretty tell me that his achievements don't matter? Either it's not important to the discussion as you were implying earlier or it's a key factor as you are now telling me. That's changing the goalposts.

The guys on the list had almost identical achievements to Mcarten at the same age (some even better) and are in the main mediocre strikers. Therefore, Mcarten scoring 30 odd league goals at 24 isn't really much of an achievement, nor does it hint at talent. Zoko and Poleon have managed it.

 

Of course his age and length of career matters Tawheed, don’t be silly. Clearly if he’d scored 2 goals per year over a 15 year career then he’d still have had 30 goals but it would hint at less talent than if he’d scored 30 in a single year. Come on man.

I didn’t play his achievement down – I simply said that you personally might not value it. That wasn’t me saying they didn’t matter, just that you might value what you’ve seen in person from him more highly but it still makes his earlier achievements applicable.

Now who is changing goalposts…..You said “poor” but you’ve picked out “mediocre” players. As I said, if we’d had any of the players you’ve mentioned at the age of 24 I’d have said they needed further time if they were still under contract and had that record behind them. Some of them turned out to have pretty decent career s for the level, some of them didn’t. That’s why I said it only hints at talent rather than proves it.

I’m more than happy to give him one more year even if my expectations of him are zero. I’d rather have that than the situation we had with McNulty and Morris and could have had with Marshall.

 

Robinson - Yes, however, I'm not convinced by Gibson as yet. Perhaps Seedorf is the one who will make or break any will and desire ? In either event - it's 'cover' for injuries or loss of 'form'.

 

If I and many others don't rate his achievements but his achievements don't matter anyway, what he's achieved (in this case scoring at a young age) then becomes redundant, it's worthless mentioning it. Your second post ultimately boiled down to the fact that irrespective of what he's done, he'd done "something". That's a very vague term and scoring across a longer period of time at an older age still counts as something, so therefore worth pointing out and not as clear cut as you're making out. All you said is 29 goals hints at talent. It doesn't.

Even putting that to one side, I've given you a list of players who have little talent and who's achievements match up to Mcarten's at a similar age to disprove your orginal theory. If you want to give him a chance then fair enough, it is of course personal preference but your assertion that a player who's scored 30 league goals or 30 league goals at the age of 24 results in them having talent worth backing is incorrect.

You can also get pedantic to the fact that I described the players on the list as poor and then mediocre, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the complexion of the discussion and they are shit either way.

By the way, who are you from C & B? You have quite a familiar style of posting but I can't quite put my finger in it. Are you Clayton?

 

For sure.
In a tight game, where legs are tired after 80 mins ........ Why not ?

 

I think you're expecting too much tbh. The list of players your listed have had very solid lower league careers and if McCarten does that then he's probably worth persevering with. It's not a theory, a theory would require me to make a prediction for the future which I haven't. I'm just saying him (and Poleon) are a different kettle of fish to Patrick.

Since neither of us make the decisions the discussions are largely irrelevant anyway however I think scoring 30 goals by the time you're 24 should buy you more than 1 poor season and differentiates him from players like Patrick who haven't achieved anything by comparison. You don't and view that they should be lumped together.

I can accept that. It doesn't necessarily make sense to me but I'll get over it.

 

We were comparing Poleon to McCartan, but I get your point.

Whilst you may have a point, I think you will be pretty much on your own in relation to Poleon staying. I’d guess that 90%of our fans would be happy if we offloaded him this summer.

So the question remains, why should 24yr old Poleon (scorer of 37+ goals, mainly in the Championship), be bombed out, whilst 24yr old McCartan (scorer of 30+ goals, mainly in L2), be given another chance?

You have answered this already by saying BOTH should be given another chance, but most don’t agree with that view

 

Completely agree. Just to clarify further....If either were out of contract I wouldn't be renewing them.

However when they are still tied to us, have cost a fee and we'd be unlikely to get that back from anybody else I'd rather give them another opportunity rather than releasing then at a cost to us or selling them off on a cut price basis.