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December: Things Could Look Better Before The Window

Discussion in 'City Talk' started by JonButterfield, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    I can see a lot of your data and don’t dispute that. In fact I like objective data, but sometimes that obscures ‘feelings’.

    My ‘feelings’, which I accept are subjective, are that City, despite our possession and points accumulation ‘on the road’, have become very frustrating at home.

    Yes some of the possession is ‘statistically’ great, but grinds into a WW1 mud, somewhere just over the halfway line, continuing with the analogy, our artillery is unable to get on target or dent the opponent’s defences.

    Leyton Orient have Connor Wood, out former fullback. He played just short of 40 games last season. This season he has been frozen out, just sitting there as one of their contracted players, two cup appearances.

    So statistically he has not been ‘turned over’, he is just ‘lost’, not even on a loan like our current Fullback Threlkeld.
     
  2. bantamdave41

    bantamdave41 Regular Starter
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    :joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:
     
  3. Captain Grumpy

    Captain Grumpy Impact Sub
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    You’ll have to tell me Dave what he actually did wrong after getting rid of Rahic .He brought in Rhodes to sort out the mess, he lets Sparks and Hughes run the club with no interference, he refused to sell to Beavis and Butthead who would have killed the club. I know you blame him for lack of atmosphere which was bizarre to say the least now you blame him for the home form which is even more laughable. Was Rhodes responsible for the crap home form under Todd ? If Hughes ever says He’d love to play 4-3-3 but Rupp won’t let him or the only thing stopping him playing 2 up front is Rupp giving orders from his bunker in Germany then you can hold Rupp responsible.
     
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  4. borderlescott

    borderlescott Squad Player

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    Whoa…..the data that is the most insightful here - xG - should be setting alarm bells ringing.

    xGF is currently 15th best in the division overall
    xGF at home is 15th best in the division
    xGA is 13th best in the division

    xGA is 12th best in the division overall
    xGA is 20th best in division
    xGA is 6th best in the division

    …….so out of that only our defensive performance away from home looks anything like that of a promotion winning team.

    we don’t look anything like as robust at home, and both home and away we don’t create enough decent chances to think our current away form will be sustained, or that our home form will pick up.

    this clearly points to a system which could collapse at any point.

    there are some sides who bely xG - Parky’s side used to be low scoring but were tight as a crabs bottom at home……and Hughes’ City are not.

    I’m worried because the stats reinforce the frustrations we see with our own eyes. 4-2-3-1 might work for Brazil when you have goals from your three but ours don’t score. We have two crabs in defensive midfield who slow play down and if Cook, who scores the overwhelming majority of our goals, gets injured, we are stuffed.

    Maybe Hughes should take a leaf out of Southgate’s book and move to 4-3-3. At least it might give us a bit more drive from midfield.
     
    Craven Koppite and Dennis like this.
  5. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    So without posting pages of xGF/xGA how do our stats compare against the other teams in the top7?

    Our figures may not be great, but then Stevenage and Barrow (as examples) may well be worse/comparable/better?
     
  6. borderlescott

    borderlescott Squad Player

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    https://footystats.org/england/efl-league-two/xg

    the top six for xGF overall are

    1st Stevenage
    2nd Stockport
    3rd Swindon
    4th Orient
    5th Mansfield
    6th Grimsby
    7th Barrow

    top six for xGA (reverse the stats as the teams giving away most chances are listed first)

    1st Orient
    2nd Mansfield
    3rd Stevenage
    4th Stockport
    5th Tranmere
    6th Barrow
    7th Sutton

    …….Stevenage and Barrow are in the top seven on merit.

    We are winging it!
     
  7. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    Interesting Stats. So how did Northampton Town get to third?

    Plus how are Stockport only 12th?

    Something here about how Stats translate to reality?
     
    JonButterfield likes this.
  8. borderlescott

    borderlescott Squad Player

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    Not every team can be replicated obviously. But there is a reason most football clubs employ sports analysts now and use xG and similar to influence their transfer business. Similarly, there is a reason why shrewd gamblers a lot richer than most have pumped millions into working with such data, which drives betting markets.

    come the end of the season, teams winging it get found out. There might be odd exceptions, but on balance the XG should be telling Sparky that bad times are around the corner.

    We need Gillead out of that midfield. We need a front-foot approach at home. We need more goals from midfield and we need more support for Cook.

    Most fans can see all that without needing xG stats to back up their views, but when the numbers are reinforcing those views, our performance analyst (do we even have one) should be knocking on Sparks’ door, looking to reinforce in January. Present it to Stefan and get a new box to box midfielder signed off!
     
  9. bantamdave41

    bantamdave41 Regular Starter
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    In answer to your first sentence... He stayed on at our club. But then Rahic and December 2018 should not have needed to happen. An astute businessman shouldn't be taken in, even when motive is simply to make money. From December 18 to Hughes, we have gone through 6 managers(plus caretaker) so the picture is more defined...

    From Todd to Hughes...you don't have to answer publicly but Rupp as the money man from summer 16 has regressed this club.

    For the record, I never suggested Rupp was to blame for the atmosphere but used factual data to compare our home record under his 'ownership' in relation to the ongoing discussion. The truth and data backs it, under Rupp we have 'questionable' home form. I have not looked at our away form under Rupp but at the top of my head, I fear the data will not be obliging....

    Captain, as a fellow City man, I'm not looking for conflict with yourself. We both want the best for our club. It's my viewpoint, wrong or right.....

    I have never wished any ill on the man, nor his people but Christ, I wish the stain of Rupp would feck off.
     
    #89 bantamdave41, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
    NorthernMonkey likes this.
  10. JonButterfield

    JonButterfield Star Player
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    I agree with a lot of this, but I haven't reached the conclusion that Rupp necessarily has to go.

    I've read other people's arguments, and I reckon he can be an invisible owner if he's content to prop us up without any complaint (after all, it's his fault we're in League Two).

    But what I don't understand is how he thinks he is driving the club forward, other than by appointing Hughes, and that kind of fell into his lap. Appointing Ryan Sparks hasn't achieved anything on-field, and why would it? A high quality marketing team might drive sales, but they don't ensure a high quality product unless they understand the product.

    I see that we have the high quality marketing team we need.

    What I don't see is a bright future for the on-field product if our once-in-a-lifetime manager leaves or fails.

    Fortunately, I think our once-in-a-lifetime manager actually succeeds, and we're in League One next season, and what's more, I think we have the ability to gain some serious momentum and can even challenge at the top end of League One without much issue if we DO go up.

    I'm not saying we'll be in the Championship by 2024, but I think it's possible, and I think Sparks can be a big part of that. What I don't see is how he helps us if we're picking up the pieces again, rather than celebrating victory.
     
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  11. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    Just to be clear, I am not disregarding Xg/Xa, I think it is a useful tool in assessing performance. However I would say that over reliance on it is not helpful. It is one of a number of indicators as to how a team could/should and is performing. I like to go back to fact, as we discuss things and @XCIV_Bantam@XCIV_Bantam has posted a lot of information.
    In a simple assessment, until we start putting the ball in the net (or even over the line), more regularly, in particular the front midfield players, then we will struggle. All the possession in the world is not going to win games (I cite Morocco V Spain as a primary example).
    I look forward to more discussion, perhaps a review in mid January, when it should be clearer, if we are likely to regain impetus.
     
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  12. scarbi

    scarbi Emergency Backup

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    Over a season all teams have a lean spell, city are having theirs now, and are still in the mix. Orient, Northampton and other teams around us will have theirs at some point, and that COULD change the look of the table dramatically.
     
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  13. Bantam Begins

    Bantam Begins Squad Player

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    Orient will have to have a disastrous run to not go up now.
     
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  14. Captain Grumpy

    Captain Grumpy Impact Sub
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    I shall agree to disagree Dave,as you say we both want the best for our club.
     
    bantamdave41 likes this.
  15. scarbi

    scarbi Emergency Backup

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    Agree. But a couple of defeats and draws and thats 10 points dropped.just trying to look on the bright side
     
  16. Lepton Bantam

    Lepton Bantam Fringe Player
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    I reckon we should easily get 11 points from those four games
     
  17. Captain Grumpy

    Captain Grumpy Impact Sub
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    I just worry about our lack of goals from the rest of the team apart from Cook who we rely too much on to score. I predict a draw at Gillingham a home win against Rochdale, a narrow defeat at Carlisle with Patrick and Gibson giving us a load of stick. A rare win against Harrogate at home and a dull goalless draw against Salford. A total of 8 points from the five games.
     
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  18. Old Grey Fox

    Old Grey Fox Squad Player
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    How can you get eleven points from four games?.
     
  19. bantam65

    bantam65 Important Player
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    Aaaah.....you fell for it then...;)
     
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  20. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    The same way you can get a camel through the eye of a needle!
     

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