Todays society

Would you know what goes on in universities. Have you ever studied in one? Or are you basing your snide remarks on crap you've read in the Mail and Express?

Believe it or not It's not actually that difficult to design a study where you make job applications to real employers from fictitious applicants from BME backgrounds. Since the employers have no way of knowing that the applicants aren't real, when the negative responses come back in spades it's pretty hard to argue with the obvious conclusion that employers are preferring white sounding candidates ahead of black ones. No amount of right wing spin can alter that inescapable conclusion.

 

That's people of African Caribbean descent only. Add in South Asian descent and it's around 10%. And those figures are from the last census, so ten years out of date; it'll be higher now.
Also factor in the massive impact that London has on our economic, political and cultural life. 40% of the London population is non white but their representation in senior positions is nowhere near that figure.
And Bradford, with its huge South Asian population, has massive underrepresentation. I worked in Bradford Social Services, which likes to think of itself as enlightened, from 1984 - 2016. Throughout that time the number of BAME middle and senior managers was tiny.

 

Exactly. This report was commissioned to produce the findings that the government wanted. The study leaders were handpicked as BAME people known to have views which are out of step with the way most non white people think about the issue. It's not a credible piece of work. It was a put up job from the start.

 

What makes you say that? Do you think credible academic research only began in the 21st century?
I obviously don't know your ethnic background or whether that gives you any greater insight into the lived experience of BAME people. But the data is clear and consistent from successive credible academic studies over several decades - if you have a black or Asian background you have a much harder time getting job interviews commensurate with your qualifications than your white equivalents do.

 

Good point. No, it doesn't. But when you add together countless day to day decisions made with unconscious bias it can add up to an organisation being institutionally racist without necessarily intending to be so.
People get all defensive about this issue, as though those complaining about being discriminated against are accusing all white people of being evil racist oppressors. But that's not how it works. Of course some white people are overtly racist, but more often than not people make decisions or design systems that have discriminatory impact without being aware that they are doing it, partly due to lack of awareness and partly due to unconscious bias. I bet that idiot woman on the radio last week who told David Lammy he can't really be English (despite being born here) because he's black, doesn't even recognise that her view is racist.
If you look at the studies I cited showing blatant discrimination in giving job interviews to BAME applicants, I suspect that a lot of that is down to unconscious bias - picking people who you feel most comfortable with - rather than deliberate racist discrimination.

 

No, it's simply that I believe a LOT of progress has been made over the last 10 years. So a study from 12+ years ago may not be reflective.

Using reports from so long ago is probably counter productive because it doesn't give credit for the improvements this generation have made. You're always tying yourself to mistakes from the past.

Just as an aside and it's not a trick question - no depth really required - do you think it's easier for men to get a response to a job application than women? The situation is multifaceted so just wanted to view a different angle.

 

I know. That's why I used the word officially and specifically Black. You're not quite right about it being Afro Caribbean though - that's officially only 1.1% (Black African is a further 1.8% and Black Other is 0.5%)

You're definitely right to mention the overall BAME percentage though and the fact it will likely have grown over the last 10 years.

However specifically with regards to black people there are very few instances where they are significantly underrepresented in anything in the UK society simply because statistically they make up such a small percentage.

If you get people to guess what the percentage is they usually go for a number far higher. Closer to the US number of 13% which can often lead to a perception of under representation.

 

A spade maybe?

 

It touches on some good points but its clear someone with an agenda (probably mirza) has had a hand in the findings somewhere down the track which totally ruins any of the good points it does make


for those that still think this is a credible academic work, some more quotes from other contributors to the report:

We were commissioned by No 10 to feed directly into the enterprise section of the report,” said Gary Stewart, chief executive of FounderTribes, which supports young entrepreneurs. “The reality we discussed, a reality informed by brave research, data and lived experience, highlighted the impact of institutional racism on entrepreneurship. We explained. We offered solutions. But it appears the exercise was always about PR and our work was not convenient for the conclusions they wanted to reach. It was four very muddled pages, some anecdotal evidence from [former Dragon’s Den contestant] Levi Roots and a big plug for HSBC bank to run a competition for aspiring entrepreneurs.”


Michael Eboda, chief executive of Powerful Media, said he was approached to recommend senior black talent for the commission but was told his candidates were not suitable due to their positions on race. He said: “The enterprise section of the report is laughably simplistic in its treatment of what anyone who knows about these things understands are complex problems. The report’s recommendations, quite incredibly, include looking to the TV programme Dragon’s Den for answers. It’s patronising, it’s tokenistic.”

 

The term African Caribbean encompasses all black people of African descent, which includes those from the Caribbean. So that figure was 3.4% in 2011 and will be higher now.
But institutional racism doesn't just apply to African Caribbean descendants. In a city like Bradford, with such a large Asian population, there is massive underrepresentation.

 

I know it will be higher - I said that. But not a lot, the ONS survey done every 3 years ( last one completed in 2017) said they demographics were still broadly within that range.

And I also know that the Asian population are usually the ones who are generally underrepresented statistically within the UK. fully agree with that.

But the comment that had lead me to comment in the demographic split was specifically about black people. No others.

 

But the latest of those studies I quoted wasn't from 12 years ago. It was conducted in 2016/17 and published in 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46927417

The point is that several of these job application studies from the 80s onwards all show the same thing - that BAME applicants have to submit many more applications than their white equivalents to get interviews for jobs. The situation may be less bad than it used to be - without studying the data from the various studies I don't know if that is the case - but it's still bad.
I don't know about the male/female situation. I suspect that there are some jobs where it's harder to get a job if you're a woman and a smaller number where it's harder if your a man. But that's pure guesswork on my part.

 

Yes, it's become crystal clear that the report writers systematically ignored the views of those asked to contribute if they didn't fit the narrative that the government/report leaders set out to produce.

 

I know. That wasn't the study I was talking about the other one was conducted in 2008 I believe.

As you say the situation is now less bad so using old studies will show a different outcome and tie ourselves to less progressive times.

The actual study on that BBC link you posted gave the answer about the male/female disparity. It showed that men were 5% less likely to get a response back to a CV application (for context -"ethnic" names were 9% less likely than "white" names) and that sounds counterintuitive to me. While not discrediting the study in the slightest it does give thought to the fact that different outcomes are multi faceted not just simply along traditional systemic lines.

 

Thanks for this. I agree, it's good to have discussions with people who have different opinions and experiences. It's interesting, but not surprising, how people's backgrounds, jobs and life experiences shape their views.
Trust me, it's pretty challenging to be involved in social/political discussions on this forum. I'm usually one of a small minority putting views that are counter to the prevailing right of centre concensus. That often leads to me being seen as far more left wing than I actually am. I probably sometimes respond more stridently than I should because I find some of the views expressed on here to be fairly shocking, and totally outside what I normally encounter in my day to day life. I come from a social science/social work background. Most of my friends are teachers, social workers and musicians, who nearly all hold views similar to my own - some much more left wing than mine.
It's easy to get stuck in a social media bubble which is just an echo chamber of one's own views. Many of the opinions and attitudes expressed on here are nowhere to be seen on my Facebook page, which is full of people with views like mine. It's a real eye opener to come on here and encounter views that would be regarded as outrageous by most of my friends, both online and in person.

 

I like this post as it reflects part of society that is in itself in a bubble,

 

But millions of people are in that bubble. Don't forget that at the last election more people voted against the Tories than for them. The number of votes required to get elected in UK cities, which have massive populations and are more left leaning, is far higher than in other areas. So, with our first past the post system, it takes many more votes to get a Labour MP elected and they each tend to represent far more people than Tory MPs in less urban areas. This creates the false impression that the current right wing narrative is supported by a large majority of the population, which isn't true. And this impression is exacerbated by the press, most of which is right of centre. The country is actually split roughly in half, as the Brexit vote demonstrated.

 

I very much doubt it is millions. By your posts you seem to be in a left leaning Liberal elite bubble of people who wear the leftist badge as a matter of course to prove how fair and Liberal they are while not been of it in the middle class lifestyle they lead and have little in common with the vast majority of working class voters who now have seen the failings of the left and have decided to vote Tory ( not sure how that will work out ) But this country has always had a centre right leaning in its electorate,