Brexit

can we have a people's vote to call Rees Mogg shitty mcshitface

 

Reece-Mogg would make a great PM with Farage as deputy.....sort all you bloody snowflakes out...

 

I think it’s fair enough to be worried about the future of the country and definitely be worried about my children. If that’s been a snowflake let it snow let it snow let it snow.

 

Nowt to be worried about mate......look after yourself....

 

Problem is the PM got the best deal available with the cards that were dealt to her (from memory a 2 of clubs, guess who card, top trump truck, half a busoenss card) the loud Brexit supporters once they have realised that this is the best deal on offer cannot accept it as it would mean admitting they lied, so they have to reject and kick it into the long grass again on the vague promise that there is something better over the hill, they just can't tell you what it is yet.... So only way this will go is - new PM who will go back and get the same deal or worse, Reese-Mogg saying we'll go to WTO rules then, ok these are less preferential than the ones we originally had when in the EU..... and still if we did those the very rules of them dictate there has to be a hard border between nations, something Ireland will never agree to; so he needs to stop pretending were all his surfs and pipe down. Right next option - general election, one party has to campaign on a mandate of new vote - then back to the polls with a minimum turnout % for it to be viable (actual % that voted Brexit was about 37% on turnout) however.... word from Europe officials today is we have gone too far down the rabbit hole to return now, everyone has spent too much money and time on it so we would have to leave even in the short term, we could 're apply and would be accepted but on less than the original terms of a founding member .....

So all in all nicely screwed we are.

Anyone unsure of how bad it will be i recommend listening to LBC James O'Brien - today's episode was good even if you're hard line brexiteer give him a week and if you've not seen sense there's no hope for you and will this be referred to as a 'ham (less derogatory term for the hard right/left on any political spectrum.

And breath

 

Problem is Trevor.... We cannot go to WTO tariffs, hate to break this to you. To be in the WTO there has to be a hard border between trading nations, and guess what Ireland will never agree to that and thus vote down anything that approaches that (not to mention no UK PM would ever sign into that) this is just another untruth rolled out...

I know it's not your fault as there has been a lot of untruths used by all sides (see immigration- we already has the exis9tng rules within the EU to restrict it but as a country Chose not to implement these rules...)

 

Trevor sorry but again we cannot stay in the customs union without accepting free movement of labour it's one of the founding rules of it....

 

@Haworth Bantam Just listening to J’OB catch up now, as I do a lot. I normally get an hour in before his arrogance pisses me off, but I’ve nearly got to the end today, it was an interesting listen.

 

Strongly agree that there should be a minimum % turnout for any future referendum, as the last referendum was ignored many people will not bother next time....
Re James O'Brien, when he comes on I turn off or switch to Talk Radio, probably not alone in that....

 

I particularly dislike how this has created divisions. Papers and mps purposely doing that. turn voting virtually tribal when both sides refuse to listen to each other. more so in US. suits Trump who can do what he wants as republicans always vote re publican etc.

 

I've done quite a bit with Europe through work and we were definitely heavily involved in shaping most major decisions. being in a club meabs you do what's best for the majority not yourself. if the EU grows the marketplace grows. quite insulting that we get control back when we were never out of control. everything turning insular and nationalistic

 

What about rees-mogg's own children, these are the names he has given them(the girl gets off lightly)

peter theodore alphege
mary ann charlotte emma
thomas wentworth somerset dunstan
anselm charles fitzwilliam
alfred wulfric leyson pius
sixtus dominic boniface christopher

the kids are going to love his shining wit when they get to be teenagers.
i can see why he will never run for prime minister- a man of the people?
just not this century,
or the last century.

 

Is it worth a listen Nottsy? I normally stay away from anything that has anything to do with the gobshite O'Brien.

 

I guess that I am the only present or past European civil servant writing on this board.

I worked for the European Commission for 31 years, starting in the salaries department, moving on to desk officer for the European Social Fund in UK and Ireland, international trade relations in agriculture and, finally, in information and communication in agriculture.

This means I know a little bit about the workings of the European Institutions, in particular the Commission and the UK’s management of EU funds. Maybe I could lend a bit of insight to dispel some of the arguments that are based on vague general impressions or misleading disinformation from certain sections of the UK popular press.

When I was a desk officer for the European Social Fund, I attended monitoring committees the length and breadth of the UK, where central government, local government, NGOs, voluntary organisations, educational establishments (colleges and stuff) and, (cough) I would gather to decide how to allocate the ESF’s funding within the various regions, designated as rural development areas, areas in industrial decline or areas seriously lagging behind.

Separately, there was a nationwide programme in favour of long-term unemployed, basically designed to train them for the market, which is very important to make them employable in a modern jobs market, addressing the supply side for the employment market..But the regional programmes, including support from the European Regional Development Fund for infrastructure and agriculture funds for farmers were designed to address the demand side for employment, encouraging employment growth and stability.

Actions for the long-term unemployed could be carried out absolutely on every square inch of the UK territory, affluent or not. There are unemployed people everywhere in need of help, Surrey, Kensington, whatever..

The industrial decline, rural development and regions seriously lagging behind got additional funding for, as I say, promoting employment growth and stability. The UK government, chairing these regional monitoring committees, was always trying to steamroller support for training courses for the long-term unemployed. My argument was that this was covered by the nationwide programme specifically for them. To then spend the money allocated to the regions was not only a waste of money but a blatant attempt to take unemployed people off the unemployed statistics. In other words. Massaging the unemployment figures, when this was contrary to the Regulations the Commission has to defend.

Sometimes I won the argument and the other partners saw my point of view, other times the money was spent on things like 1-year training courses for long-term unemployed in trainee baggage handlers at airports, trainee herdsmen, long-term training courses with no job at the end but net reductions in unemployment figures for a time.

My job was not to support the UK government but to work for correct implementation of Council Regulations ie regulations passed by the Council of Ministers, ie the member states = You Lot.

Message of the above: don’t blame the Commission for mismanagement of EU funds when the member state concerned is abusing them.

Next stage of my career was international relations, in particular in agriculture. This brought me into the negotiations for Free trade Agreements, in a junior technical and supportive role but I saw how they work. I worked on FTAs with South Africa, Mexico, Chile and Mercosur (Argentina, Brasil, Uruguay and Paraguay). I was also on the desk for agriculture trade relations with ASEAN countries.

A Free Trade Agreement (FTA) takes YEARS to complete, just for one. There are tens of thousands of industrial and agricultural products with each line subject to negotiations for dismantling tariffs, whether immediate or progressive.

You would not believe how one little product line can cause a negotiation to stall. It is really complicated as both parties have defensive and offensive interests, meaning those products for which they apply and want to maintain tariffs (defensive) and those on the other side where they want to export and see a dismantling of the other side’s tariffs (offensive). For example, a round of negotiations with South Africa stalled because 2 parties could not agree on what they had agreed at the previous negotiating round : did we agree on net weight or gross weight for canned peaches?

A FTA is not just about tariffs. It’s about establishing common standards like animal welfare, sanitary and phytosanitary standards, protection of intellectual property rights, protection of geographical indications and designations of origin, rules of origin (did that garlic really come from Netherlands or is it a re-exported Chinese garlic subject to different tariffs?), dispute settlement procedures, anti-dumping and countervailing measures, safeguard clauses.

I would not even want a FTA with the USA. Would you trust a Free trade Agreement with Trump, who jumps in and out of agreements at will? I definitely would never buy their chlorinated washed chickens, their genetically modified cereals, other crops treated with pesticides banned from the EU food chain and their beef cattle stuffed with corn and hormones, bringing them up to beef market inside 13 months, instead of the 24 to 36 months it takes to feed up a grass-grazed European animal to market. USA agriculture is too profit-based, at the expense of health concerns. EU standards are more demanding than USA.

Outside of a FTA, products being imported are subject to masses of red-tape, checking certificates of conformity, rules of origin and tariffs of individual components in a complex finished product such as a car. Yes it’s a British manufactured car but where did that engine, exhaust manifold, textile seat covering , leather steering wheel come from?

Jumping out of the EU is not going to eliminate red-tape at import/export borders, it’s going to be a nightmare. UK ports are going to have to control factors that are taken for granted within a common market and a customs union.

I said above that a FTA takes YEARS to complete. The Mercosur deal never happened. It failed and was scrapped after years of back and forth between Europe and South America due to Latin economic factors outside the EU’s control.

Today I heard Rees-Mogg say that UK can launch Free Trade negotiations with the rest of the world, quoting some % of the world’s population as being open for new FTAs. This ignores the fact that most of that population is poor.

Firstly, I hope you have read and understood what I wrote above about what negotiating a FTA involves and the time it takes just to complete 1. Secondly, the EU represents 22% of the world economy, more than USA. We are expected to dump relations with the biggest market, the closest market right on our doorstep, to negotiate with Africa, South America and the USA? Do you know how far away countries like Australia, New Zealand are? Do you seriously expect to have meaningful exports to China?

And services: I heard that services represents 80% of the UK economy. EU principles guarantee free movement of money, goods, people and services. So we now want to block this free movement, to the utter displeasure of service industries, manufacturers and importers/exporters dependent on just-in-time delivery of components.

I had a heated discussion with an old friend recently. He said he voted “leave” because he was fed up with an unelected Brussels bureaucrat (J-C Juncker) telling him what to do. I had to explain what the European Commission is. It is the European civil service, delivering what the Council of Ministers has decided. The Council means the elected governments of the member states. All civil servants are “unelected”. The Commission does not decide, it implements instructions form the Council that have been approved by the democratically elected European Parliament. If you didn’t vote, don’t complain. He could not name 1 single thing that had impacted his life from the Commission “telling him what to do”.

How about a new view on immigration? A true born Brit is born here, in hospital, cared for in hospital, educated at the nation’s expense until finally launched onto the jobs and tax-paying market to recoup some of the investment. European immigrants can come here as ready-made workers and tax-payers. There is not a fixed number of jobs in the UK, regardless of population. (Say) 5 million new arrivals are 5 million new consumers to be fed, housed, needing services, creating more demand and instantly ready to pay tax. Not bad faced with an ageing pensioned population, needing new funds in government coffers.

Leaving the EU will not avoid having to respect rules and standards to be able to export into it, with no input into what those rules are. This makes UK a rules taker, not a rule maker and a net loser of sovereignty.

People are saying “Just get on with it”. But what is “It”. Nobody agrees what Brexit means. But a lot of people agree that it should not happen.

Revoke article 50 and revert to status quo, which is infinitely superior to anything that is currently being proposed.

But please stop chanting drunkenly in front of TV cameras.

 

You can now see reading this why the UK should be free of an over administered EU, Decisions at the centre by administrators wed to the belief the EU know better how to spend YOUR money, The US has the healthiest population and food probably on the planet but the bloated administers and protectionist frightened of competition will use any excuse not to take products from them, For example chlorinated chicken, It sounds awful but the US Food protection agencies insist that raw chickens are bathed in a light chlorinated bath to destroy and prevent food infections that are common in the UK and EU such as salmonella and nova virus and food poisoning which prevents these diseases in the mass selling of chickens in to the food chain, It has no downsides and protects the population and the only reason the EU bans it is to protect the EU members from competition

 

The deal we have agreed is to stay in the customs union while having control over our borders and the freedom of movement