Brexit

I have always been the view that the only way to exit the EU, in a way that causes least disruption is over a period of time. Yes we could go but there would be disruption probably a year or two before we can sort it all out. I wouldn’t like to call the next election, but all I know the public are at the very least anxious and frustrated to outright anger. We hear a lot about how the opposition politicians not trusting the Tories, but wait while they emerge from the Westminster bubble, they will find a passionate and angry electorate that doesn’t trust any of the buggers!

 

If that appeared on a Chris Morris show like The Day Today or Brasseye no one would know any different.

 

Wouldn't it be great (and genius) if Boris was on his way to see HM and ask her to prorogue parliament from tonight...........?

 

I agree entirely. The Remain campaign was a disaster. It was pathetic.
This whole disastrous mess is down to the failure of the mainstream Tory party to face down the right wing Brextremists in what is now the ERG. Less than 4% of the electorate supported UKIP in 2010. The EU was ranked as 10th in the list of the electorate's concerns back then. So it wasn't a pressing issue for the public and there was no need whatsoever to make it into one except to resolve internal Tory party squabbles.

Cameron put the referendum pledge in the Tory manifesto solely to appease the right of his party but never expected to get a majority government. He believed that there would be another Lib/Tory coalition and that Clegg would veto it, so he could claim that it wasn't his fault that he reneged on the manifesto commitment. Then he unexpectedly found himself in a majority government and he had to go ahead with the referendum, but his heart wasn't in it.

Cameron expected it to be a walkover for Remain. He called it without putting in the necessary preparation or consultation with pro-Remain groups, parties or MPs, and did next to nothing to promote any positives of EU membership. So the whole Remain 'campaign' (if you can even call it that) was lacklustre, unprepared and easily caricatured as Project Fear.
Add to that the fact that Corbyn and others on the left of the Labour Party either sat on their hands or actively undermined the Remain campaign behind the scenes.

The referendum campaign was an open goal for Leave. It was obvious that they were picking off floating voters at will, aided and abetted by targeted Facebook propaganda from Cambridge Analytica that nobody knew about until afterwards. Cameron sold Remain voters down the river by presiding over a referendum he didn't have to call and which he totally failed to manage. A properly prepared and managed campaign would have walked a Remain victory.

From my perspective the only good thing that might come out of this whole sorry mess is that the Tory party will rip itself to shreds so that we can eventually return to sensible social democratic government. Regardless of the current Parliamentary tactical shenanigans, this debacle is totally down to the Tories and history will damn them for it.

 

If he did, she'd refuse.

 

If we're trading quotes:
Johnson: 'We can have our cake and eat it'
Gove: 'The Germans will be desperate to do a deal because we buy so many of their cars'.
Fox: 'Getting a deal with the EU will be the easiest deal we've ever done'.
Do you seriously believe that relentless campaign of simplification and misinformation had no effect on persuading floating voters to vote Leave? Those comments were deliberately targeted at floaters and (aided by the world's most pathetic campaign from Cameron and Osborne) they had the desired effect. They convinced enough to squeak a narrow victory but they certainly don't constitute a mandate for No Deal, which is why parliament is blocking it.

 

No, what was said was the Tories and Labour would deliver Brexit as part of their Manifesto and neither can agree.
All they have done is disagreed with any deal and I truly believe that there is no deal that could be given that would be passed such is the Remain bias in Parliment leaving all to play politics for their own gain.

The Tories are clearly going to stand on no deal as their policy in the next election, if they are voted in on that mandate then so be it. The Lib Dems want to revoke article 50, if they were to be voted in on that mandate then so be it.
When Labour actually decide on which side of the fence they fall then they could do whatever they finally agree their position to be, and so be it.

 

We have the 5th or 6th largest GDP in the world which is heavily influenced by the trade deals the EU negotiate on our behalf (the vast majority) and our access to the EU single market.

I keep hearing how the UK have a large enough economy to stand on their own two feet and how the EU are fecking us over but it doesn't make sense any sense as we are where we are under EU protocol.

 

I disagree. I think there was a deal to be done, but only if Leaver MPs were prepared to compromise. We could have left the political aspect of the EU but retained the close economic ties, and parliament would have voted for that. But that would have required Leavers to compromise on Free Movement of labour. But that compromise was rejected as Brexit in name only. Once May set down her red lines any hope of serious negotiation with the EU or gaining a Parliamentary consensus went out the window.
The forthcoming election will force each party to nail their colours to the mast. But whether it will produce a majority government capable of forcing a way out of this mess is much more open to doubt. Another hung parliament is a pretty decent bet.

 

Indeed. We have decimated our manufacturing base and are heavily reliant on inward investment from the far East, much of which will disappear when we no longer have free access to the EU market.
We have been protected from the worst consequences of our own folly by the protective umbrella of the EUs large internal market and negotiating muscle. Once out, the realities will hit much harder.

 

More proof, if any were needed, that the far right Tory leadership intends to make us more 'competitive' by tearing up social and employment protections. The return of the sweatshop economy if they get their way.

Beyond the backstop: how Johnson wants to change Brexit deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/06/backstop-boris-johnson-brexit-deal-changes-defence-workers-rights?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

In that kind of deal, what would be the point in leaving the EU? Everything the same except we don't have a say anymore.

 

Looks like we don’t have a say anyway, seems that the EU do all our negotiating on our behalf.

 

I think your trying to wind me up mate, even given your above quotes, a narrow victory, it was the highest turn out of recent times 33,551,983 people who were aware of how important the need to vote was in this referendum.
I hope we have another great turn out then there can't be any grumbles "your selling our future the young came out with" when we get another win, you need to get your rallying call out to the young un's drag them of their games console and tell them to put their spliffs down and get out and vote as us oldies will certainly be out in numbers it's just something we do .
This is quality from Corbyn

"the other one is about democracy in Europe, we have European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody, powers have gone from National Parliament they haven't gone to European Parliament they've gone to commission and some extent to the council of ministers these are quite serious matters"

 

The Tories keep telling us they will not go into coalition with the Brexit Party if they are true to their word this could be the shortest Parliament ever, Farage says he will not join the Tories in coalition unless they promise Brexit with no strings attached.

What Brexit deal is this we haven't got one Mays efforts have been voted down 3 times, any new deal would have to be different, I'm not sure The Guardian is the best paper for quoting Tory policy .

 

Am I missing something here by the way, As a bill was pushed through parliament to block a No Deal Brexit by those who who also appear to want a second referendum, can't these same people with the government now massively depleted post a bill to start a second referendum?

Or are the calls for a second referendum as hollow as those calls for a General Election.

 

This is the Tory way. This is who they are. Money, 'class', superiority. They're the top and we're the bottom as it's been for hundreds of years. They're the ones who put kids up chimneys, down pits and in the factories. They're the ones historically opposing unions and decent working conditions. It's them. The Old Etonian Lords and Ladies. Them now as they've always been. Rich, powerful, in control.

For any tax paying, NHS using, school using, library using etc etc person to doff their cap in reverence to this self serving lot is spitting in their own face. They hate you. They despise you.

They don't pay tax like you, they have it offshore. They don't need the NHS and wouldn't dream of using it. That's why they'll sell it off to an Old Etonian chum and make millions.

Farage, Johnson, Mogg having the very people that they despise hero worshiping them! It's perverse.

 

Not all MPs, on both sides of the house, who oppose No Deal support a second referendum. So a bill to force a second referendum wouldn't necessarily get a majority.
The only thing this parliament can agree a majority on is to stop No Deal, which they are doing. This buys time for a General Election with all options still available, to see if anyone can get a working majority to take things forward. If Johnson can get a clear GE win with an explicit mandate for No Deal then fair enough, he can crack on with it. But parliament won't let him sneak it in by default with no mandate.