Boris and Trump

Please tell me you are joking!

You spoiled your ballot paper because the politicians didn't give you all the answers? That's unbelievable.

Surely as a responsible voter and a grown up adult you are capable of doing YOUR own research and forming YOUR own opinion.

When has anyone trusted everything a politician says? Next you'll be telling me you trust everything an estate agent tells you?

There's a LOT of information out there. It is YOUR job as a voter to make up your own mind based on your findings and not to rely on the political rhetoric of whoever happens to be wanting your vote at the time.

If you are unwilling to do your own research maybe it is best that you spoiled your ballot paper, and you may want to do the same in the next general election too ;-)

 

I think you will find most of the 'polorised, partisan and childish' behaviour has come from one direction.

There was a ballot. There was a result. One group of people, the remainers, decided they didn't like that DEMOCRATIC result and have spent the following three years completely messing up negotiations and our chance of becoming a flourishing independent nation.

And in all the time, the remainers still never bothered to ask that all important question - 'Why did you vote leave?'.

Oh, and just to be clear, I was pretty much on the fence, but having seen how the EU have behaved over the last 3 years I am now desperate to get out of that awful organisation.

 

The remainers realising we have a Leader in Boris that will take us out in October are now panicking, expect dire warnings from them now on including the end of the world, The pound is down, it is not all brexit no matter what the remainers say, It was at this level in 2012 well before brexit, It will recover and become strong as the banks and currency investors take their profits and move on,

 

I can agree with much of this, certainly with regards utilities being in private ownership and the railways.
The Labour party have plenty of problems they need to sort before I could vote Labour again the leader being the biggest he carries to much baggage.
They are now an official Remain party or they were the last time James McDonnell spoke on the Petson show another reason I can't support them.

 

If you have a few minutes to spare have a watch of this Alice Weidel says it all and does realise which country it will effect the most Germany who pay the largest contribution now, she explains that there is no winners only losers the way the EU have gone about the process, even quoting France and Macron having too much involvement.
Quoting Barnier "My mission will have been successful when the terms are so brutal for the British that they prefer to stay in the Union".

 

Can you explain your rationale for why the pound will recover?

How will that benefit our trade if our exports become more expensive and then have tariffs layered on top?

 

History shows the pound always recovers, Its price is determined by the international currency speculators and the banks, In 2012 the doom mongers said the £ was a doomed currency, 12 months later it was as strong as ever,
Trade is Trade and will always take place despite the efforts of politicians to muck it up,
BTW most large companies that import and export buy the currency at an average price well in advance to even out currency fluctuations,

 

Its a no win @Hulmebantam as the £ is very low it has a good effect on our exports, yet costs our importers with regards exchange rate, if the £ was high then our exports cost more and imports cost less, the price of oil is in $ so a better valued £ would make oil cheaper and vise versa as you know.
Winners and losers but overall which is best for the country/economy, the press go on about holiday makers getting a poor deal with the Euro if holidaying in an EU country but that is a once in a year occasion for most families not a weekly/monthly thing.
With regards tariffs without doubt it's not a good thing but I would expect we would do exactly the same with produce/products imported from EU countries be it wine from France or cars from Germany, I believe someone posted we are the largest importers of German cars Merc's, Audi's, VW's, BMW's so Germany will defiantly take a hit, and IMO now the EU know we are serious with regards leaving with no deal they will get pressure applied by big business in Germany who are without doubt the country that not only will have to pay more of the EU budget to cover the UK's contribution when we leave but will take the biggest hit because they are possible the UK biggest importers.

 

I appreciate that companies hedge currency risk.

I'd argue that is goes deeper than being determined by speculators and the banks. As we learned to our cost when shadowing the ERM, and why sensibly we never joined the euro. The speculators base it on the fundamentals of the economy.

At the moment, we are facing a shock, in terms of the outcome of Brexit. That is priced in, but to an unknown extent. Long-term there may well be economic benefits to Brexit. There will be quite a lag on this, even Jacob Rees-Mogg was talking about years for this.

However, from 1st November we know there will be issues. The Government is already starting to set aside money for this, but how much will be necessary? What will be the mechanism for funding? Perhaps an increase in Government borrowing which could force up interest rates, but that is not what the consumer or business investor needs right now. In the short-term at least, it appears a significant pressure on costs for businesses. As a net importer, further falls in the exchange rate will put further strain on the productive economy.

I can’t see, at the moment, was is intrinsic to the British economy that will drive demand for the pound.

Boris Johnson has been talking about significant expenditure in areas we know that it is needed: education, policing and social care. However, this costs, and so unless it is smoke and mirrors will potentially be at a time of falling tax receipts.

Leaving the EU is a systemic change to the British economy, potentially as big as OPEC in the 70s. Depending on your point in history, I’d argue it Is more the case that the pound has weakened against both the dollar and the euro as a long-term trend. It is going to take huge structural change in the UK economy to reverse that. In the meantime, many people will be poorer, at least in the short-term.

I think @Bronco is right about the pressure from the German economy to avoid No Deal but I don’t think that will shift the prevailing view of the EU enough. We are in for a rocky ride over the next few months.

 

@Hulmebantam it should never have come to this yes I can see why the EU are trying to make it virtually impossible to leave without major concessions they want to make the UK an example to the other 27 who might think of leaving in the future.
What I do find annoying is that they keep saying the deal is the deal and Boris can't try renegotiating another, yet that deal was never ratified by Parliament even if May was party to it and signed it on behalf of the British people, that was the very reason Dominic Raab resigned and would not put his signature to the so called "Chequers Deal".
A no deal is far from ideal for all parties involved but as I posted on the very day the deal was put to Parliament, no sovereign government would sign up to the backstop, there is still time to adjust the backstop the question is have the EU the will to adjust it, especially when the EU have openly stated if we leave without a deal from the EU, there would need to be a hard border between the two countries in Ireland.
Yet the Irish government has repeated its stance that it will "not accept a hard border on this island", then Leo Varadkar goes on to say: "Regardless of Brexit, the British government will always have responsibilities as co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement to ensure that, even in a no deal, there will not be a return to a border." which ironically is the part of the backstop the UK government and the vast amount of sitting MPs won't accept.

 

Excellent post and agree with most of it, Have always been of the opinion that leaving especially without a deal will be a shock to the economy, However our economy is a strong one and it will recover fairly quickly within months, Long term is another matter and the EU has been good for the UK but has held us back as well so believe long term we will be better off,
Was listening to the German trade minister who was giving the opinion that if we left with no deal then an arrangement or deal would be offered by the EU and in place within a couple of months as the shock to the EU economy started to panic them in to a good temporary deal.

 

Maybe when Cameron went cap in hand for a better deal that is just what should have been offered instead of the rubbish he came back with.
Even now the EU can avoid a no deal with a bit more leniency, amend the back stop and then allow a period of time to work on the details, as I say it's still doable if they want to.

 

It is now becoming pretty obvious that the main reason a deal could not be done was in fact Theresa May herself

 

The left derides him because he considered himself an extension of Thatcher which is rightly or wrongly anathema to a lot of us on the left. And also because between them, him and Brown pursued a policy of deregulation of the banking sector which led to the financial crisis in part as we were subsequently overexposed to US junk mortgage bonds.And the Iraq War. Then the bit where he became a Middle East peace envoy. Blair did a lot of good with the minimum wage and things of that nature but we dislike him for a reason. His legacy in the party is also people who have briefed against Corbyn on a daily basis to the press for four years, despite the blairite wing of the party fielding some of the worst candidates I could have imagined (Angela Eagle or Owen Smith, come off it lol). I would also say thats an incorrect statement given the NHS was the creation of a Labour Government which has arguably been equally if not more beneficial.

Unions nowadays are a shadow of what they were, I've worked on the bottom rung of the ladder in places with a good union and places where a union is just a pipe dream (try 12 hour shifts 6 days a week with a 30 minute break only all day) and I was treat miles better at the places with a good union without fail. We can't continue to allow union mistakes of yesteryear (scargill etc) to undermine the case for the power of collective bargaining, as the pendulum has very much swung the other way now.

 

I did my own research, looked at what was being said to me and frankly realised that reducing the most complex constitutional issue of our time to a binary yes or no question would inevitably end badly and was a deliberate fudge on the part of the powers that be. If you couldn't see that I suggest you spoil your ballot at the next election in penance.

Look at ALL of the crap that is happening now. 'wah wah leavers lied' 'wah wah remainers lied' 'a vote for leave is a vote for no deal' 'no ifs no buts just OUT' despite that never ever ever being the question in the first place. had the electorate done what I did and called the choice for the bullshit misleading choice that it was, we might all be less divided now. Why should I choose between two options I believe to be inadequate when even after my own research they are still inadequate? That to me is just as valid a choice.

edit - read some of my other posts on politics, do i sound like the type of person that doesnt spend time reading into this stuff off my own back?

 

I would add the complacency and idiocy of David Davis to this.

The negotiations should always have been about the best for both the UK and the EU, rather than the view that we had to stuff them. That might play nicely to the gallery, but wasn't the approach needed.

 

Nope, came equally from both sides. Someone above just implied I was a communist for having left wing views when discussing this exact issue, so Remain in no way has a monopoly on people being nobheads. What about the bit where remainers were called traitors and enemies of the people? How would you like it to have 3 years of your patriotism being questioned because you disagree with someone?

My point being, the quality of debate on both sides has been an utter disgrace and to try blame one side only is just plain wrong.

 

Lets see what Tony Blair and New Labour actually did while winning 3 elections

Introduced the national minimum wage and establishing the low pay commission...
Brought in the human rights act,
More than doubled the number of apprenticeships,
Tripled spending on our NHS, 4 new medical schools built
42,400 extra teachers, 212,000 more support staff,
Scrapped section 28, introduced civil partnerships,
Doubled overseas aid budget...
Introduced sure start,
lifted 900000 pensioners out of poverty,
Peace in Ireland with good Friday agreement,
Tax credits for working poor, Equality and human rights commission...
Reduced the number of people waiting over six months for an operation from 284000 to almost zero by 2010, 44000 extra doctors, 89000 extra nurses...
Brought in the winter fuel allowance,
Climate change act,
Decreased homelessness by 73%...
Free eye tests for over 60s,
16,000 more police officers,
Extended the opening hours of over three quarters of GP practices...
Free prescriptions for cancer patients,
Removed the majority of hereditary peers,
Free part-time nursery place for every three - four year olds...
Paid annual leave to 28 days per year,
Paternity leave,
Doubled education funding,
Increased the value of child benefit by over 26%
Introduced thefood standards agency,
Brought in the equality act,
Brought in the FOI act,
Increased university places,
Helped end the civil war in sierra leone,
Rural development programme,
EMA, free bus passes for over 60s, banned cluster bombs,
£20bn in improvements to social housing conditions, longest period of sustained low inflation since the 1960s...
Reduced he number of people on waiting lists by over 500000; waiting times fell to a maximum of 18 weeks
(lowest ever levels)...
Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75%, doubled the number of registered childcare spaces, Introduced the disability rights commission...
Free television licences for those aged 75+, Free breast cancer screening..
introduced the hunting act, banned testing of cosmetics on animals...
10 years of continuous economic growth, wrote off up to 100% of debt owed by poorest countries.
Reduced the National Debt to near Zero,
Although Gordon Brown being much more to the left managed to feck it all up after Blair had gone

Of course we wait for the Left/Corbyn to win an election and do the same for the people of this country who need help not empty promises, Or maybe have a group hug with Hamass, Hezbollah and the IRA to discuss it and form a committee, That should do it

 

I never argued that Blair didn't do a lot of good so that nice list was a waste of time Trev. And to say Brown was further to the left is ridiculous given he pursued deregulation of the financial sector alongside blair. Someone further to the left of them wouldn't dare deregulate an industry to the extent they did. Take it from someone who is moderately further to the left than them for real, it just wouldn't happen.

The terrorist thing is what gets me. The tories cosy up to the Saudis for example, who then subsequently fund people like Isis and Al Qaeda who then bomb the shit out of us, being of the same highly repressive form of Islam. Yet they seem to get a free pass on that. There was also Thatcher's support of Pinochet against a democratically elected government of the time, simply because the Tories and the US didn't like their politics. The point I'm getting at is calling Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser is a completely moot point because if you look deep enough they all are.