Players taking the knee

Oh, okay, can you remind me of Saka's record as a penalty taker in the league and do you have a video of his best penalties at training.....I suggest that both you and I are probably more qualified...!!

 

Theres a good debate somewhere here but suggesting that Bukayo Sako was picked by Southgate to take a penalty in any wy because of the colour of his skin is not only utterly ludicrous its also insulting to Garteh Southgate. I worry about people sometimes.

 

You don't need to worry about me RT, my suggestion may be unpopular but it's not implausible when you think about the pressure and ridicule (knee) that Southgate has had to contend with..

 

The best one I've heard is, "I'm not racist - I love curry".

 

And yet it took footballers 232 years to resurrect it...c'mon, talk about barrel scraping...!!

 

You're not wrong, It's a much better point than the MLK one earlier.

There's absolutely no link between that and what Kaepernick/BLM/the FA did though is there? It's simply a coincidence spanning 2 centuries. As far as I know althoug the image was used on the medallion it wasn't replicated in protests but I could be corrected on that.

 

Of course it isn't. There may be a small number of its leaders who have Marxist inclinations, but that doesn't make it a Marxist organisation.
There are thousands of Tory Party members with views that are a fag paper's width from the likes of Viktor Orban, but that doesn't make the Tories a neo-fascist party.

 

The operative word in all those reports is 'movement' rather than 'organisation'. The FA and players take the knee in support of the Black Lives Matter 'movement' - which is many millions strong and in the vast majority of cases involves no membership of an organisation. They are not signed up or affiliated to any Black Lives Matter organisation.

As Wikipedia says:
"While there are specific organizations such as the Black Lives Matter Global Network that label themselves simply as "Black Lives Matter", the Black Lives Matter movement comprises a broad array of people and organizations. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" itself remains untrademarked by any group"

"The phrase "Black Lives Matter" can refer to a Twitter hashtag, a slogan, a social movement, a political action committee, or a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice."

"the movement "encompasses all who publicly declare that black lives matter and devote their time and energy accordingly"

When the FA and players say they are supporting Black Lives Matter it is that broad definition of the term they are referring to. The phrase is so broad as to be virtually synonymous with being opposed to racism.

Those who want to hang the FA and players for taking the knee have deliberately chosen to misinterpret the stance as support for a specific organisation which they fear has revolutionary intentions. That interpretation is a politically motivated attempt to obscure the fact that the FA and players are actually supporting the much broader, non affiliated Black Lives Matter social movement.

 

I agree with a fair bit of what you write Tone but youre barking up the wrong tree with this one.

 

All of this I know but it's largely irrelevant. When you're using Black Lives Matter then you can't distinguish your message from the organisation of the same name. You couldn't go around wearing a T-Shirt saying "Nazi" and claim it has nothing to do with the party or the outlook. The words we use and the way we use them matters.

The Premier League knew this which is why they distanced themselves formally from the organisation at the end of last season but by then the damage had been done and the act of kneeling was intricately tied into the US version of BLM by that point and some people don't like it. To say the act of kneeling and BLM US are not intertwined is completely disingenuous.

That's not to say that the message that black lives matter isn't a positive or worth one - it completely is - but the link to the organisation who have some unseemly elements to it will guarantee that there isn't 100% support. Will there be people involved in the booing who are racist and use BLM as a convenient cover story, yes of course, but by picking that gesture we're giving them that cover.

As an aside Kick it Out and the other anti-discrimination platforms have had numerous initiatives and I don't recall them ever being booed so there is something particular about this gesture that gets people's goats. We can either acknowledge that and try to find ways round it or just continue to keep brow beating people into believing it has nothing to do with BLM when they've been told for a year that it has.

 

Every word....

 

What gets people's goats is that taking the knee is a visible stance that actually has an impact, in that they are forced to acknowledge its existence. Whereas Kick it Out and other such worthy campaigns can be safely and easily ignored by those who don't want to acknowledge the reality and extent of racism.

 

You are right (there had to be a first time), without the gesture we can either applaud another initiative or shrug our shoulders and just get on with the game we came to see..

 

Exactly. Black lives matter is a broad, non-affiliated social movement that pre-dates BLM Inc.
Saying that support for the broad BLM movement cannot be distinguished from association with BLM Inc is like saying that everyone with liberal views must be a supporter of the Liberal Party.

 

Thanks for proving my point. Kick it Out and such initiatives have been totally ignored by those such as you who don't want to acknowledge there's a problem.

 

No. You're so close but just not seeing it. Everything is visual, everything makes you acknowledge the existance but this particular gesture is different,

Until people who are supportive of it recognise why it's different and why some people are not accepting of it then they'll never be able to persuade the other side. They'll just be fighting an imaginary strawman which doesn't actually get the the root of the minorities objections.

 

And that's democracy, something that is totally alien to yourself.....