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George Floyd copper

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Keefly Bantam, May 31, 2020.

  1. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    Fordy, be quiet. The adults are talking.
     
  2. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    Don't engage me on this topic fordy. Seriously. It's too important and all you add is ignorance, hyperbole and misrepresentation of the points and facts raised. I'm serious. Please don't engage me on this topic, I've no intention of discussing it with you.
     
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  3. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    They really don’t though. If they did then Hispanics would have the same rate of death by cop As their crime rates are similar but they don’t. Blacks are over twice as likely to be killed by a cop as a Hispanic while a Hispanic is only slightly more than a white person.

    What you actually see is a 3 part problem.
    1. Being a police officer in the US is one of the most stressful due to how common guns are. Cops are hence much more on edge when on a call in the US than say the U.K. as they have to be
    2. Training is inadequate. When you have a gun problem and in turn arm the police training should be the longest and best in the world, It’s not. The guns they have access are almost treated as a cheat code to skip any serious training in good police practices on dealing with situations.There have been a few occasions covered in the media over the last few years of police chiefs coming to the U.K. and then commenting on how well trained our officers are and how they are amazed how we de-escalate situations without guns and that tells it all. Send them to train with the UK police for even 2 weeks and they would be a million times better prepared to deal with the situations they face let alone have them go through full more extensive process British cops go through
    3. The black communities attitude to the police especially white ones. Groups like BLM push this narrative that white cops are just looking for a reason to kill a black person and as is often the case if you hear it enough you start believe it. That changes people’s behaviour, often not for he better when it comes to de-escalating a situation as both acting nervous or getting angry can be misread by edgy cops. It can be so easy for something to be pushed so much that it almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and when that happens its really hard to reverse it let alone put the genie back in the bottle
    So what you often end up with is people acting in a way that can come across badly even thought its really their response to nervous situations, with cops already on edge because of the nature of their job and cops with not enough training to interpret the situation in a calm and correct way. It’s just a situation waiting to blow up.

    IF BLM really cared about saving black lives they would be campaigning against all 3 things not trying to push the racism angle which actually makes sorting factor 3 harder. The reality is though like so many 'campaigns' these days fact's mean nothing, all the care about is making a noise even if it means twisting details. BLM don't speak up when most death by cops happen because they are usually at the hands of BLACK COPS (As part of trying to build trust most police forces in the US have been making a move to put make the make up of the cops in precincts better match the residents. It's built some trust in many of the non-black areas but the distrust is so deep rooted and it keeps being played on by groups like BLM its largely failed in Black areas. That does mean though that no matter your race if you get killed by a cop its highly likely its one of the same race as you) but as soon as its a white cop its 'RACISM' as that's an easy buzz word that gets them support and if there is any push back on they just scream racism again to shut people down. Things simply won't improve because we will have a few weeks of everyone attacking the police forces as a racist group, as its something the police forces can't sort because its not inherently racism that causes it nothing will change and then people will forget until next time a white cop kills a black person when BLM will push the falsehood again. Sort out factor 3 and we are likely to see death by cops fall to around the hispanic rate. That's still too many mind you but then also sort out factor and its likely to fall across the board as they won't be so quick to go to 'force' as a solution. And sort out factor 1 (which sadly is unlikely to happen in the US) and not only will death by cops fall but violent deaths as a whole are likely to fall.

    But that's all too complex for the Social Media SJW groups, you can't deal with a complex situation with multiple factors in a a single tweet so lets take the easy way out and blame it on racism even if that means driving people further to both extremes rather than helping bring people together to improve society
     
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  4. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    It seems to be a view held by some, that racism can only affect certain races. There's an irony there, as that's a racist position in itself!
     
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  5. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    Great post. Statistically, if you're a black man in the US, you're at most risk of injury or death from another black person. Now, there's nothing unusual in that sense, as most murder occurs intra-racially. However, even allowing for that - the rate of black on black killing is higher than white on white, or Hispanic on Hispanic, or Asian on Asian. Similarly, the rate of single motherhood and absent fatherhood in the black community is much, much higher in the black community than any other. That's a key cog in why deprivation and crime is prevalent in the black community. I can't understand why BLM doesn't prioritise these points.
     
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  6. How

    How Knows Football
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    James Corden. FML. No thanks
     
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  7. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    Can't disagree with any of that, the same way the hijacking of the term racism has led to the huge problems we face in this country with the grooming gang scandal. A lot of problems stem from the blame anyone else but themselves culture we have today, the Tyson Fury rant on GMTV this morning an example in point. Bleating on about 'the poor travellers always been victimised' but then failing to ask the question as to why. Victimisation in its lowest form is abhorent, but unless you are ask the difficult questions as to why then nothing will change.
     
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  8. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    No, for some reason its easier to blame the white community for failings from your own community. The white community has enough cultural failings of its own with being bakmed for the failings of others.
     
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  9. Tolly856

    Tolly856 Squad Player

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    Nobodies saying that there are not problems within the Black American community, all lives don’t matter and white people are the crux of all evil. The only stat that’s relevant, and I’m assuming the source of the BlackLivesMatter slogan, is that a black person has a far higher chance of being subject to police brutality than any other race and violent crime rates have little bearing on such atrocities. The protests and violence whether you condone it or not isn’t about a one off incident involving one white police officer and a sole black victim as a few seem to be indicating, but is reflective of the racial divide in America and a long, deep rooted history of racist policing.
     
  10. Keefly Bantam

    Keefly Bantam Important Player
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    Thanks for the info. I sort of knew that I think.

    To me it just seems a totally wrong gesture to make, sort of recreating the way he died.
     
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  11. Keefly Bantam

    Keefly Bantam Important Player
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    On the face of it you may be right yet if you look at post #114 you see some.stats that appear to shed a different light.
    The obsession with owning a gun (right to bear arms) has to make policing that much harder all across the US.
     
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  12. Tolly856

    Tolly856 Squad Player

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    These are the stats I’m looking at:

    https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
     
  13. Hoochy-Min

    Hoochy-Min Squad Player

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    Flare ups like these happen and people talk talk but nothing much changes. It's all niceness for a while and then the slogans start disappearing and people stop tweeting about it because they're on to their next hashtag to jump on. Slowly but surely things return to how they always have been, it gets tolerated for a while and then something big happens again and it's ready to go off.

    We're due a summer Bradford riot any year now.
     
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  14. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    Not dismissing the abhorrence of police brutality. But its a subjective statement. I'd rather discuss it on the basis of data. How is police brutality defined for example? Black people make up 13% of the US population, but comprise 53% of murder convictions, 54% of robbery convictions, 37% of violent crime, and 43% of convictions for carrying deadly weapons. So, if black people in the US are much more likely to commit violent and deadly crime, you'd assume that violent confrontations and arrests with police would also be more likely. That would be logical wouldn't it?
     
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  15. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    But what you and BLM are ignoring is most police brutality on black people is done by black cops. Are Black cops racists against their own race? Are white cops suddenly only racist to black people and not to other races?

    And where is BLM when it is a black cop doing it. Guess what nowhere to be seen as it undermines their 'All white people are racists' stance.

    And to dismiss crime rates is just dumb. Crime rates, especially violent crime rates have a direct impact on exposure to the police and hence the likelihood of getting into a situation of police brutality happening. Take 20 low-income families from a black low-income community and have the swap with 20 white families from an affluent area for a year and do you want to know who will have the most contact with cops and face the higher chance of police brutality? It will be the white families because of the neighbourhoods

    Police brutality isn't a racism thing, its as I said its a perfect storm of US society issues, a Black community issue and inadequate police training. BLM throwing the racism card on the small percentage of occasions it's a white cop involved distracts from the actual issues so that the Black community don't have to face up to their part of the problem. It's just easier to blame everyone else and not even blame them in the areas where blame is to be shared (The obsession with having a gun and the neglect shown towards police training)
     
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  16. Hoochy-Min

    Hoochy-Min Squad Player

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    I think some of it is definitely a racist issue. Other factors certainly but there are racist people out there in positions they exploit.
     
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  17. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    There are obviously racist cops out there but as I've already said if its racism that's the driving cause why is most police brutality carried out by cops of the same colour as the person? Why is the Black and Hispanic crime rates fairly similar but a black person is over twice as likely to be killed than a Hispanic one. Why are Arabs and Asian people less likely to be killed by police than a white person? If its racism then all the rates of non-whites should be around the same, infact the Black rate should be even higher as Native Americans are killed almost twice as much by cops as Blacks.

    The death by police rate is too high no matter what race they are, that's the combination of poor policing and the prevalence of guns but there is clearly something else that isn't racism and isn't even the crime rate that see's black people more likely to get in a situation where a cop kills them because if it was either of those things the Hispanic rate would be higher than it is
     
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  18. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    Without a doubt. You also have to make a provision for the element of police officers who're just tw*ts, looking for a level of authority to be able to throw around and commit violent and criminal acts under a shield of 'protection'. Happens with every police force around the world and always will. In the US though, the population at large is armed, which inflames that risk.

    Apparently, the officer who killed George Floyd has 18 previous complaints against him. No doubt that will be explored by the prosecution as a means to demonstrate whether the crime was overtly racist, or whether he has a history of violence against people of all colours. Could be a key piece of evidence.
     
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  19. Hoochy-Min

    Hoochy-Min Squad Player

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    Yes, I've seen reports of his history. Sounds like a nasty bastard in general.
     
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  20. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    Race aside, if there's an aspect of change that I think should absolutely be tackled, it would be for the means by which police officers with above average complaints, or serious complaints of misconduct against them, are disciplined and managed. Where acts of unreasonable force are seen, particularly those that result in death, its unlikely to be an isolated or out-of-character action. The warning signs will be there and need to be addressed. And that MUST include acts of violence against victims of all races.
     
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