George Floyd copper

Not in my world but we all see things differently

 

I beg you pardon? Where have I suggested that everything is racism? Where have I suggested that I ignore other factors? I have explicitly mentioned other factors in this thread, the main one being poverty.

The post I quoted of yours holds within it racist rhetoric that you're trying to back up with science.

 

By the way, I didn't call you a racist per se, I said you have racist opinions. I don't think you would consider yourself racist at all.

 

You've taken a section of society and claimed that the crime they commit is somewhat predisposed due to their genes, ie, their heritage, their race. This hasn't been proven. What you're doing is suggesting that some races are more susceptible to negative outcomes because of their DNA. I'd suggest that's the very definition of racism. It's completely unproven science and a very controversial subject. Some relevant stuff here.

 

There have been some really good points and good arguments made here by both sides. I’ve tried to think about my own viewpoints and attitudes a little more, and It’s certainly helped shed some light on areas that I’ve not been getting right.

I think @Faithful Bantam has made a really good point about the BLM movement. While I do think there is institutional racism in this country, and I do think that there’s a legitimate backdrop to these protests, I think a lot of the left and liberal can be extremely guilty of saying and doing ‘whatever they can to fight injustice’, but only selectively applying this.

And I’m absolutely not surprised that the working class feel that their concerns are being neglected, and the societal inequalities are being understood purely through the lens of racism, and are steadfastly refusing to accept that we have widespread class based inequality of opportunity in this country. The white left wing view comes across as ‘no, no, it’s the black community that I’m actively defending - you’re all still racist scum’.

We should absolutely be standing up to racism, wherever it is, and whatever form it takes, but simultaneously stand up for all lives. Telling deprived white communities that ACTUALLY they should feel lucky that they’re so privileged is just tone deaf, and I’ll hold my hands up to an extent on that. Clearly a lot of people don’t feel very privileged. It’s a kick in the face.

The middle class liberal has become too accustomed to trying to win an argument on race, and neglecting the fact that a lot of the concerns of the black community are equally applicable across all deprived communities.

Maybe I’ve not phrased all of that 100% coherently, but it’s to broadly say that I can fully understand why the words ‘black lives matter’ - a movement that I sympathise with - is being interpreted by many as ‘and your life doesn’t’ and would only serve to increase the level of disenfranchisement.

Thank you also to whoever suggested ‘Why I’m No Longer Talking To White People About Race’ - have had similar recommendations and have ordered a copy. One thing I’ve realised is how much I don’t really know about the topic.

 

Could you use the same argument for football fans? Is there something in the genes of some football fans that make them get drunk, abusive and fight more than those that attend the opera? Or is there something in the environment and culture that encourages this rather than a specific pre-disposition to alcoholism and violence within, in this example, native Americans? I obviously don't know that answer to that, but from scientific perspective we know more about the genetic structure of fruit flies than we do about the human genome. It is a big leap, right now, to start ascribing observed behaviour to human genes.

I am absolutely not denying that there could be a variation or mutation within some people that could make them more susceptible to the effects of alcohol. I also take @SimonW point that this could be both heritable and inheritable and so become more pronounced within certain groups in society.

There is a similar narrative for indigenous Australians.

However, as the spike in domestic violence in recent months perhaps demonstrates, remove security and certainty from people's lives and perhaps take away hope that things are in their control and violence (or at least reported violence) increases. Alcohol sales grew rapidly during lockdown as people turned to it as a way, I'd argue, to dull the senses in response to a bad situation. This would appear to be more of response to an environmental change, chance event at that, than being able to argue that it is the result of a genetic disposition.

I'm very sceptical of any claims that we can use genetics to ascribe behaviour traits to particular groups of people. This is very different to recognising that certain communities or groups of people have problems that need to be addressed, based on societal norms and expectations.

 

I'm going to be ordering the same book. Whilst the title fills me with scepticism on the basis that I expect it to take the shape of the many flaws of the debate, such as how different perspectives are minimised and shouted down without good reason, I figure I have nothing to lose. Either my sceptiscim will be reinforced or I'll learn something. Either way, I benefit. And I cant criticise those who are unwilling to be open to different perspectives if I dont practice what I preach. I'm moved by an ongoing online discussion taking place at my work, which has many different perspectives being shared and a huge degree of empathy and willingness to learn on display. Elements- such as the blanket view that all white people are by the very tone of their skin colour privileged or have never been oppressed on the basis of race, I strongly disagree with. But the willingness to learn and discuss openly, I think is crucial.

On that basis, I dont believe institutional racism exists in this country, I'm open to being proven wrong. What's the basis for you believing it exists and how do you measure/evidence it?

 

I see the racist Holmefirth hillbillys have brought shame on their community.

 

I'm cooking tea, so can't do a lengthy response. There are plenty of statistics one could use to demonstrate differences.

However, I'll share an anecdote. I went to University with Min Patel, Kent cricketer who did play for England. Really sound guy. He talked to me about stop and search in London (he was from Dartford) and the racist comments he'd experienced as he played youth cricket in particular.

I've no doubt he was treated very differently because of the colour of his skin.

 

I’ve no doubt whatsoever that racism exists and that people face incidents of prejudice. I believe that all races are susceptible to such things, its not exclusive to any particular skin colour. The example you’ve given isn’t evidence of institutional racism though.

 

White Privillage 1970s Gt Britain .




This is to highlight the perception that nobody suffered in the 60s and 70s , slum housing. very little chance of a decent education , even less chances in life . To say nobody but Black people know what its like are wrong .

 

Nobody is saying that.

 

No, I appreciate that it isn't, although the MacPherson report following the Stephen Lawrence explicitly stated that institutional racism was present in the Metropolitan Police. The same police force using stop and search that Min Patel experienced a number of times.

 

No Hoochy , all the sybolism and outrage on social media says that white people haven't had the hardship , the lack of opportunity , the lack of education etc etc , this is the reality , i went to school with lads and lasses like these , this was their daily home life , i dont have to read about it in books on facebook and the like i lived through it . And the black and asian community had the same conditions , we've all come a long way since these dark days .

 

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/fundraiser-bullied-kiss-shoes-victim-18364056

 

When the term white privilege is thrown around it has a tendency to encompass all whites in some sort of privilege bubble. It's fashionable in today's social media world to throw virtue signalling phrases around without really understanding the meaning. Privilege around the world is not defined by colour, the caste system in India an example.