Brexit

Unfortunately what I'm seeing and hearing from Starmer I can't vote Labour, who in their right mind believes the EU will cut us some slack, they are being well paid by the British tax payer to reduce/stop the small boats, the only way that will stop is when there is adverse weather in the channel nothing to do with the French police.
As I've posted previously the French aren't doing what they said they would, once in the dinghys they are no longer Frances problem yet many countries are condemning the traffickers and smuggling gangs so France not stopping the boats they are turning a blind eye to what's going on and encouraging smugglers/traffickers wouldn't you agree.
If Starmer is to get some sort of a deal with the EU then once again it will be on their terms, those of us who voted leave were constantly told we knew the EU would stand firm and not give the UK privileges other countries outside the EU don't get, and rightly so, we accepted that argument so why people think Starmer can sweet talk them is crazy.
Starmer has openly stated Labour will not be looking to rejoin, yet there is talk today of a possible return as part of an 'outer tier' of members, France and Germany's 'secret plan' to drag Britain back into the EU WITHOUT a referendum, aided by Starmer: How plot dubbed 'Macron's onion' - which was devised with 'Labour in mind' - will try to lure UK back under Brussels' control as 'associate' country
Of course its a part of being in opposition to criticise the party that is in power but when any Labour front benchers are ask if they were in were in power what would they offer as an alternative, to which they either say we'll draft it out in our manifesto or waffle their way through without giving a define answer as we know all politicians do when they have no answer.

 

This is, of course, pure Brexit-supporting media speculation and scaremongering. There’s no way that Starmer would think of taking us into such a formal arrangement with the EU unless there was clear and strong public support for the idea. It would be electoral suicide to do so.

Of course it’s perfectly possible that, say, ten years from now, there may well be strong public support for the idea. By then many of the older voters who voted Leave will have died, replaced in the electorate by younger voters who are generally more socially liberal and who don’t hold the old Empire memories and anti-foreigner sentiments of many older Brexit voters. By then it will also be crystal clear, even to many who refuse to see it now, that Brexit has isolated and economically damaged us, so it’s in our interests to have closer trading arrangements even if we don’t fully rejoin (which I doubt the EU would want anyway).

 

You're such a charming, cheerful bloke, what an attitude....

 

What I find so strange is your total obsession with boat crossings, immigration and the EU.
Thirteen years of Tory rule have decimated the social fabric of this country, massively increased poverty and inequality, made nearly all of us poorer, created a huge housing crisis for our kids, and shattered our NHS, education, police and other social services. They have also created the boat crossing problem (which didn’t exist before Brexit) and dismally failed to deal with it effectively. Jesus wept - as an ex Labour voter, how bad do they have to be before you think they need to be voted out?

 

What’s attitude got to do with it? It’s an incontrovertible fact that many who voted for Brexit won’t be around in 2033 - seventeen years after the referendum.
The makeup of the electorate is changing, as it always does. We know that the majority of younger people are less anti-Europe than many older people, so the public attitude towards the decision to leave will change (and already is doing so). I’m 67 myself, so I’m not saying this from the perspective of an aggrieved younger person. It’s just psephological reality.

 

No, we don't ....don't be so presumptuous

 

And just imagine I know you remainers could never accept it but we become a stronger nation because we chose our own destiny.
The EU at the moment is hardly harmonious, Germany one of the manufacturing power houses of Europe struggling not go into recession with their country in economic contraction, Hungary & Poland telling other fellow member they will not take immigration quotas, Italy being over run with migrants whilst the other countries watch and offer poor solutions to stop it then the EU want to enlarge it with more poor ex iron curtain countries, and posible an Asian country.
Were still awaiting the doom and gloom that was predicted at the time the pound looking good against the Euro and the dollar unemployment level still very low there an abundance of jobs if the dole dossers want to get off their buts and work, hardly the scenario were were told before we left and to add to that a world wide pan demic were the UK performed better than many EU countries, each individual country looking after its own citizens rather than the togetherness of a group of 26.

 

Because it's a thread on Brexit and unfortunately like it or not immigration once again will be the main topic on both manifestos come the next General election, and all this because Angela Merkel threw Germany's border open, that was a great move.
Your correct 13 years of this government has been difficult for the ordinary working man, but allowing the number of illegal immigrants into the UK hasn't helped the things you have identified above, NHS, schools etc that's without the millions the government have to spend to put these illegal immigrants into hotels, because we have to abide by a document that was written when no one could envisage the present situation, it either needs reviewing and altering or the UK need to pull out, these numbers of illegals economic migrants is not sustainable but by the sounds of your reply you don't see it as a problem.
Even accepting the people who decide asylum claims was doubled/trebled it could not keep up with this invasion, I know you don't like the word but I suggest 85,000 that the Hone Office are predicting to have crossed the English channel as of August 2023 is nothing more than an invasion, that'd boat people alone not coming to the UK by other means, then the left wing lawyers will get their noses in the trough with appeals being payed for by legal aid again the British taxpayer picking up the bill.
You comment Brexit has caused this, there was always illegals trying to get to the UK, where the "streets are paved with gold", I'd suggest all inclusive housing rent, gas, electric, food provided, clothing, and spending money, then having no control over these people once they step onto British land many disappearing into the black economy is about right.
I don't see France, Germany, Poland, Hungary, Spain, Italy doing the same maybe the UK is the only country playing by the rules.
Your correct I've made my position clear with regards the last General Election but I'm not buying what the present Labour party are proposing or not proposing when they are in a corner when being questioned "what would they do in power" so to conclude I'm not happy I may have to vote Tory again but although I was a Labour Party member most of my life I'm not being taken in by what Labour might do if they were to get into power.

 

Immigrants aren’t responsible for the decline of this country. The Tories are. We have a Labour shortage; we actually need more people in the workforce and they’re not coming from the ranks of the unemployed, because unemployment is low. You seem obsessed about immigrants, as though they are the cause of our decline, when they are just an easy visible target and a relatively minor issue.
We are still a rich country. But far too much of our wealth is in the hands of a tiny minority who pay very little tax on their riches. And the Tories are (quite deliberately) making this worse because (surprise,surprise) they and their friends are the ones hoarding all the money. They don’t give a shit about poor state schools, the crumbling NHS, rising crime or the difficulties many people have making ends meet, because they can all afford private education, private healthcare and live in posh low-crime areas. You’re shooting at the wrong target.
This article sums it up pretty nicely:
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/right-wing-ideologues-cant-work-out-who-broke-britain-so-let-me-explain-2627060

 

Of course we do. Do you live in a cave?
The majority of younger people have always been more socially liberal than older people, which usually equates to less suspicious of foreigners. Younger people have grown up in a more multi racial society and so most are quite used to living alongside people from other ethnicities. Also, many more go onto higher education, which is consistently shown to lead to more liberal attitudes. And many of those more educated youngsters resent the fact that their freedom to easily move between living an working on the continent and the UK have been severely hampered by Brexit.

 

Younger people have always eventually grown up to be more wiser when they are a bit older................well, in most cases ...

 

But all the current evidence is that people are now retaining their more liberal views much further into middle age compared to the past.

 

I don't think I've suggest your first comment, your correct with regards needing more people in the workforce but they need to be people that we allow to enter our country hence take control of our borders, which was the case with the likes of the Polish, Spanish, Romanian coming to work here, and I would still allow them to return it's all about the British government having control of who we allow into the country.
Anyone would think the above highlighted is a new thing, it's always been the case as long as I've taken interest in politics.
When Labour were in power they did little to tax the non doms etc the very people your quoting.
With regards what Labour did in their 13 years of government they left many councils struggling to pay rents to the owners of those buildings private companies had built hospitals, schools etc Labour promise to the electorate would get built, unfortunately in many cases it was with money from the people you are critising, Labour should have borrowed money when it was relatively cheap, or use the money from the gold they sold at low prices or the raid on the pension funds which hit ordinary people like you and me, building hospital, schools etc with tax payers money not financial institutions money.
Clutching at straws now Steve again please point out where I've claimed its the immigrants that have caused the decline, I find it unacceptable the British tax payer through the exchequer are throwing money at these people, if you believe homing these asylum seekers is not a financial burdon ( which even the Labour party accept it's not fair on the British tax payer) there is little point in discussing the matter, maybe Starmer has found a magic money tree because if Labour were to get elected ( which should be a shoe in) they have to put their vision of how they will sort it and it certainly won't be done over night.
You say " They don’t give a shit about poor state schools, the crumbling NHS, rising crime or the difficulties many people have making ends meet," you really do have to wonder how they have been in power for the last 13 years winning 3 General Elections and being in a coalition with the Lib/Dems in the other, the alternative must have been unelectable don't you think ?.
I don't think we're going to agree Steve so little point in you posting stuff for me to read, for me to find another article saying the exact opposite.

 

Aye, if you say so......

 

No. All the research and polls say so.

 

So my original point is correct. You won't vote labour because of the EU. Seriously mate. Get a grip.

 

I can assure you anything you post won't have any bearing on how It vote "mate".

 

Surprised you can't see the flaw in your argument here.

You do realise that voting isn't restricted to those in 'further education' don't you? Most people who vote don't bother with all these online polls - they're notoriously left (look at the Brexit prediction polls vs actual voting results, or the last General Election for example)

Myself and many of my peers who are of the same political alignment don't vote on any of these online polls but we vote in person.

Whilst I agree the education system and urban areas with a high number of multicultural demographics may be more liberal and more red than blue - there's a whole load of people who aren't accounted for.

For every urban area with high multicultural demographics, you've probably got 2 primarily white British estates.

For every 'higher educated' liberal student, you've probably got 2 people who are educated by their families with old-school values and not coerced by the liberal narrative.

For every red that votes on an online poll in a desperate attempt to garner their political strength, you've got a few who will vote blue who don't bother with the online polls.

Get the drift?

And the highly ironic point that many on the extreme left make that those typical pub going working-class white British folk with low IQs don't deserve a vote is that the one's they try to defend by voting red is the 'working-class folk with low paid jobs'

 

Make no mistake Sunak will enrol us back in the EU as much as Labour will. He is a remainer who believes in the EU and will do his best to drag us back in after the election

 

Not everywhere is the same as Bradford, you know.
Where did I say that university educated young people are the majority? But there’s no denying that things have changed. When, in 1980, I became the first person in my extended family to go to university, less than 10% of 18 year olds went to uni. Now, it’s nearly 40%.
And social attitudes across the whole population are much more liberal than they were 30 years ago so even non university youngsters are, on average, more liberal than they used to be.
And who, apart from you, is talking about the extreme left? This was a discussion about liberal social values impacting on attitudes towards Europe, which has sod all to do with the (numerically very small) extreme left. And, actually, many on the extreme left are anti-EU, seeing it as a big capitalist plot.