Brexit

I'm also a taxpayer and I really don't mind that much. I would much prefer we focused on clamping down on large multinationals who don't pay tax, as the amount of people who do what you've just said doesn't warrant that much effort in the grand scheme of things. I actually said giving people warnings etc is fine, I've done it myself with people, but taking benefits etc off people is different. Benefits aren't anything to do with your place of work and threatening what are likely to be some of the poorest people in society for not accepting threat centred management is just plain stupid. We are in different worlds Bronco, mine being the real one I think.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people get so worked up about the relatively minor issue of benefit fraud - even to the point of voting us out of the EU to stop people coming over here and sponging off our benefits, when hardly any of them actually were. Yet the the absolutely gargantuan issue of multinational tax avoidance, which costs the country mega billions in lost revenue, gets largely ignored.

 

If an employee doesn't do his/her job efficiently and you go down the road of warnings ultimately having to sack said employee its O/K for them to go on benefits when realistically they haver put themselves out of work.
100% behind you with regards multinationals tax avoidance they have done it for many years under both political parties.
There is no threat if the employee is doing their job correctly , poor me the boss is picking on me, I doubt that very much industrial tribunals are not a place companies want to go and lose, they usually have a pretty strong case, have you ever attended one as the companies representative I can assure you they are through in their questioning and making sure you as the employer have crossed every "T" and dotted every "I" before bringing it to a tribunal or they throw the case out.

 

What don't you get Steve, but I'll repeat again I voted for the only political party that was prepared to acknowledge the referendum vote, the Labour party got exactly what they deserved selling the Northern Labour voters down the river.

I think I've made my position clear on non-dom's and multinationals milking the system https://bantamtalk.com/index.php?threads/brexit.460/page-212#post-668529

"Where did I say they lowered standards, my words were "even "New Labour" under Blair had to be far more moderate to get a Labour government in power", did they go after the non-dom's ?, did they stop large conglomerates making deals with the inland revenue, Apple, Amazon,Starbucks and the likes.
Unfortunately voting Labour will not change society the poor will stay poor whilst the rich find ways of not paying their fair share of tax's".

 

Losing your job is punishment enough, I've been on jobseekers and its generally humiliating and a pitifully small amount to live on. Taking that away from people even if they are delinquent to me is inhuman. Are you saying they should starve?

Also in my industry ZHCs mean you are essentially self employed, so nobody gets tribunals or anything fancy like that, you just stop getting given shifts. different eras mate even in 10 years.

 

Not if your not pulling your weight, that is down to them they know their terms of employment and getting a wage for their efforts if they don't want to put the effort in leave, how can you expect the rest of the workforce do their jobs as required yet one employee be allowed not to, if that is the case you're not doing your job as part of management.
You see my job as a part of management was to make sure everyone did what was expected, I could not let someone not pull their weight as that would not be fair to those who did.

I totally agree ZHC are an abomination and employers shouldn't be allowed to have them for workers in this day and age, unfortunately for some its a way of life, I couldn't work under those terms and would have to get out.


Behave should they starve.

 

I wasn't specifically talking about you Dave. I was talking generally.
We have created massive economic problems for ourselves by leaving the EU, in order to 'solve' non existent, or massively overstated, problems.

 

But you say you believed free movement was the major reason many voted leave which I would never disagree with, but even though we've left there are ways that EU workers can still come and work, as the farmer said the other day he has people lined up who would be happy to return to jobs they did before, but its the visas that are not getting done which is just stupid.

 

But those visas were never required before, and now they are. As well as advance proof of employment etc etc. Even if the visa system was speeded up - which looks highly unlikely any time soon, with the PM candidates promising to make swingeing civil service cuts - it'll still be a major deterrent when EU nationals can work elsewhere in Europe without having to navigate all the hassles of coming here.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/10/brexit-stage-left-how-touring-in-the-eu-became-a-nightmare-for-british-bands?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Yet another disastrous consequence of Brexit. One of the areas in which Britain has traditionally had a preeminent position is in music. The obstacles for bands and individual musicians to play in mainland Europe are now horrendous - purely as a result of Brexit. It's absolutely crazy.

And before any says, 'aah, but it's The Guardian', I know scores of pro musicians and have heard, first hand, numerous complaints about exactly the kinds of problems described in the article.

 

Of course they weren't required before we left the EU the point being we accept who we want into the UK rather than free movement, I believe the very reason the Northern Red wall voted leave and changed a life time of voting Labour to vote Tory.
But who knows if Labour put forward an electable manifesto they could return, maybe Starmer will see sense and go down the route of bringing the necessities to life back into public ownership, I'd say what the majority of the UK population are going through at the present moment would be a vote winner.

 

Never crossed my mind Steve a left wing paper doing everything it can to discredit the referendum vote, I wonder if the likes of Queen another big British bands have the same problems.
Queensup and coming Rhapsody Tour is playing 81 venues in Europe
No. of shows: 27 in North America; 6 in Asia; 11 in Oceania; 37 in Europe; 81 in total

 

I completely agree about the re-nationalisation of utilities and railways. But the issue of what Labour do or don't put forward as their manifesto for the next general election is a total red herring in this debate, which is now about the impact of Brexit, not what happened to cause it. We all know that Labour's approach to the Brexit issue, both before and after the referendum, was a total mess. But that doesn't alter the fundamental issue that Brexit has caused massive problems for our economy, both in labour shortages and big difficulties for British companies importing from and exporting to, what is always going to be our biggest market, the EU.

Yes, we now 'accept who we want', as you say. The downside of that is that many of the people we want and, more importantly, need, to keep our economy going, no longer want to come here, because they can't be arsed with the bureaucracy. That is a direct result of Brexit, however much you try to dress it up as something different.

 

You've completely missed the point of the article Dave. Or maybe you you didn't actually read it.

The problems outlined in the article do affect all touring musicians. But it's stating the bleeding obvious to say that they don't affect multi-millionaire superstars like Queen as badly as they affect the vast majority of gigging musicians. Queen are the tip of the iceberg and, as such, they are totally atypical of the average touring musician. As well as having sufficiently huge amounts of money to be able to cope with the extra bureaucracy, Queen will also have large numbers of staff or agencies paid to deal with all the customs and travel logistics. So, of course, the massive amount of post-Brexit regulations aren't going to stop rich, established global stars from touring Europe.

The point that the article was making is that the vast majority of gigging musicians are not wealthy superstars. Most just barely scrape a living. Since the collapse of record/CD sales because of streaming, they rely almost totally on live appearances and merch sales at gigs to make their living. They don't have armies of staff wading through the bureaucracy and oiling the wheels for them - they mostly have to jump through all the numerous hoops themselves. The cost and hassle of the post-Brexit touring requirements in Europe makes it economically unviable for many musicians to play gigs in Europe which, as the article points out, was previously a vital place for up and coming bands to hone their craft and build careers:

“The time the Beatles spent performing in Hamburg before their record contract was formative to their sound,” said Ainscough. “It’s where they learned their harmonies and learned how to play incredibly tightly and come together as a band. You only get that from the act of performing live frequently and seeing what works and what doesn’t before a crowd.
“The barriers Brexit has put up means these types of careers are being held back, possibly even curtailed as some musicians will give up.

“Most musicians are freelancers. They are small businesses. They’re exactly the kind of people that the Conservative party ought to be cherishing. These are people who, in Norman Tebbit’s terminology, got on their bikes and went off and found work."

Brexit is making it exceedingly difficult for most musicians to play gigs in Europe. That's a fact. What Queen do or don't do is entirely irrelevant to that fact.

 

No there is no down side many UE works want to come to work as the farmer I used as an example pointed out, although you seem to know better than the likes of the farmer and many other employers who are finding it hard to get visa's, its a direct result of this government not getting their back sides into gear.
That is your opinion but a very different take on it to the very people who have sorted EU employees but can't get visa's quick enough.

Sorry Steve I wouldn't try to side track you just pointing out with the current situation the Red wall Labour supporters may return but not under the policies Labour put forward at the last general election.

 

Yet this is the UKs take on EU musicians performing in the UK.
https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/impact-of-brexit-on-uk-musicians-performing-in-the-eu/

What are the rules for EU musicians performing in the UK?
As reported in NME on 13 January 2021, Oliver Dowden outlined the requirements for EU musicians coming to the UK. He said:

Artists, musicians, and entertainers from the EU don’t need a visa to give performances, take part in competitions or promotional activities. If they get paid, they can stay for up to one month, and if they are only claiming expenses or prize money, they can stay for up to six months.
Looks like there's only one side playing silly buggers, although you remainers won't admit it the EU are just being bloody minded (which is their right), as most leavers believed that is exactly how we would be treated by our so called friends across the English Channel.
I wouldn't be in the least surprise if those sort of conditions the EU are putting up for musicians are very similar to UK citizens trying for employment in the EU.

 

For every story about workers wanting to come here but frustrated by visa delays there are others from employers (particularly in the hospitality sector) saying they are getting no interest at all from EU citizens who would previously have worked here on a seasonal basis. Students and other young people who would do peak season jobs here simply aren't bothering to apply.

 

It's not just about visas, although that's part of it. If you read the article I posted above, there are all sorts of technicalities around instrument carnets etc that add significant costs and lots of added bureaucracy. If a British band or musician wants to tour several countries on mainland Europe they now have to jump through these multiple hoops every time they cross a border. This is a direct result of Brexit. It was known in advance of the Brexit vote that this would be the case.

The EU is not 'playing silly buggers'. It's simply applying the same rules to us as it applies to musicians from every other non-EU country in the world. As they always said, and we always knew, they would.

It's astonishing that Brexiteers seem to expect that we could leave and yet still keep all the benefits of free movement that we had when we were EU members.

This is a massive own goal because the numbers of UK musicians wanting to tour Europe greatly exceeds the number coming here - because British music is so popular internationally. Just as with the trade barriers we have voluntarily imposed on ourselves by leaving, we have created a situation where one of our world leading economic sectors - musicians - have had their working lives significantly impaired by Brexit.

 

The deeply ironic thing about the current cost of living crisis and the last election is that Corbyn was traditionally a 'leave' supporter but had to fight the election on a remain arguement. Boris was traditionally a 'Remain' supporter but had to fight the election oppositely to win the vote.

If Corbyn had stuck to his Leave principles he might well have won and have renationalised the utilities.