World war 3....

Will the Russian people see the body bags coming back, will it get the sort of exposure we saw our girls and boys brought back to Wootton Bassett.
The last time we were in Egypt there were many Russian people with their children maybe one way of getting directly to the Russia people is to ban the likes of Aeroflot flying Russian holiday makers into countries where they have enjoyed holidays in the past a small start but your hitting the ordinary Russian people for the actions of their government.
As we saw on TV last night any sort of protest by the ordinary Russian on the streets is meet with swift responce from the police.

 

Fair comments pretty much how I see it, I don’t think NATO will last through this war. By war I don’t just mean the Ukraine conflict, this will spill over into NATO countries in Eastern Europe. Nobody wants war but America and Britain were willing to shed blood in the Middle East when there was no threat to our home lands against bandits and small countries for their own gain, now they’re willing to leave an European country for dead because they’re against big bad Russia. I imagine China and Russia will share a few drinks after Russia’s victory, not because China give a shot about Ukraine but because it’s shown NATO to be a waste of time.

Russia aren’t a superpower anymore, their population is less than that of Germany and Britain combined and they roughly have a similar GDP to that of Italy who are one of the poorer western countries. China are the real deal and must be laughing if NATO nations are so scared to do anything against Russia. If we won’t fight against Russia then forget China, they’re on a totally different planet as should the US be.

That said we do need to do everything to avoid nuclear weapons being involved but the east will use that to their advantage.

 

I'm not so sure. There has to be benefits to joining NATO and one of them has to be that countries within the coalition are treated differently to those not in it. If you just defend everyone then what is the benefit of joining?

The first time a NATO plane is shot down by a Russian (or vice versa) then all hell breaks lose. We also need to learn some lessons from the last 30 years of conflict, the body bags don't just go one way. We have to stop trying to be the worlds police force to some degree.

 

In 2017 we spent a fortnight on holiday in Russia. We were amazed at the number of their people that we met who made disparaging comments about Putin and the KGB.
Hopefully once the sanctions affect the masses in Russia the protests will grow and lead to him being overthrown.
The Russian Prime Minister, Mikhail Mishustin, has a background in industry and economy and must be worried about future if the Western Alliance stands firm.

 

Its already too late, NATO should have already acted. The west should already have done more. Dont kid yourself that this will limited to just the Ukraine.

 

I'm not kidding myself - I believe Putin will push and push.

But the point remains - if you're going to defend non-NATO countries will the full force of the alliance what is the point of any country actually officially joining and giving that reciprocal commitment?

 

Ukraine isn’t just any country though, they are allies with many NATO countries and if not for Putin probably would have been a NATO member by now. Not to forget their geographical importance in Europe to both the west and Russia. I understand your point but it would be more valid had Putin invaded somewhere in the Middle East or Africa of little importance to NATO. Russia and China know full well the importance of Ukraine to NATO and will think well if they won’t do anything about it then it’s a clear sign of weakness.

 

Terrible situation, couldn't contemplate a heart breaking situation like this, in this day and age.

 

I do take that point, but sometimes its just about doing the right thing. What Russia is doing is an affront to humanity, its a threat to peace and democracy across Europe and beyond. If its allowed to go unchecked, Putin will only become more emboldened. I don't for one second think this is about a principled position on th borders of NATO as an alliance. I think they're shit scared of Putin. The west has grown soft, its lost any sense of it s principles because its lost its sense of reality. Its a weak and fractured society, and Putin knows it.

 

Of course it's a sign of weakness but that's because we are weak. Not in terms of spending or infrastructure but in our willingness to actually wage a proper war with a nuclear armed country with a mad man at the helm.

Do the West have a willingness to fight a long term war on our own doorstep and cut off Russian energy and money and probably disrupt the whole supply chain from China. Of course not. Our populations aren't willing to do it and our politicians certainly aren't.

And I know Ukraine is a close ally, etc, etc, but countries like Latvia and Estonia took the risky leap to join NATO specifically so they could have that protection. Would it actually be fair on them if a country who hadn't given the same commitment got the same level of backing?

 

Yes because they know they’re likely to be next, it’s specifically within them countries interests to help the Ukraine, where as it wouldn’t be if he invaded a country with no significance to Europe or the former Soviet Union.

 

A question. How should Nato / the West respond to Putin's not so veiled threat regarding interference. I found that a chilling moment, as no doubt he intended it to be. I have no idea how to answer that by the way

 

Yes that showed the guys a total despot to me, I think partly due to his age he feels he has nothing to lose and wants to go down as a famous warlord in history so will probably be willing to do anything even if it means his own death.

In answer to what can be done it maybe a case of the horse has bolted now, had NATO put a couple of hundred thousand troops in Ukraine pre invasion and threaten Putin with war and destruction if he proceeded it may have had a totally different outcome. People like that act to shows of strength and likewise weakness, I don’t believe he’s have invaded if he’d seen NATO meaning business. He could have played the victim to his country, but he does that anyway as the likes of Hitler did in the build up to war.

 

War nearly over, Putin has offered surrender terms to Ukraine and meeting in Minsk with Ukrainian government to discuss

 

The same way in which you deal with any bully.

I realise its more complicated than that, but the principle still applies.

 

That is indeed chilling, and indeed, meant so to be. Putin does see this as an internal matter, a civil war if you will, and so, outside interference must be discouraged in all ways possible. Having nuclear weapons certainly helps. Here one really needs to get to grips with Putin's mind. It's common to call him a madman, but is he, to any degree and in any way, clinically "mad," or just supremely and coldly calculating? Who wants to find out, when being wrong might have truly catastrophic consequences?

Oh that would be just lovely for him wouldn't it! No Ukrainian of any standing whatsoever, actually, no Ukrainian, should set foot in Belorussian or Russian territory -- they would almost certainly disappear, one way or another. This is another thing for which the Russians have form. If it has to be a face-to-face meeting, it should be held in a neutral country, with all security arrangements etc. handled by that country. Switzerland and the Swiss, for example.

Refer to my reference to the saying by Lenin in my previous post. Yes, force is the only way to deal with a bully (whether sane or mad).

However, the civilised world has developed suitable mechanisms, through the UN -- cf. the treatment of Iraq after its invasion of Kuwait. The Russians would veto any similar decision now, but I expect there will be a way to veto the veto. Then, at least, you have legal and moral authority behind you, as well as a clearly-defined goal. For example, clear Ukraine of Russian troops, but do not cross the border into Russia itself. I know that this is speaking from the head; the heart may well think otherwise. At least money and equipment is being sent, along with other kinds of aid, by various countries. We need, also, to be ready to welcome Ukrainian refugees, and support any resistance movements and activities that may come into being.

RCB

 

I agree in principle, but it is indeed far more complicated when dealing with a calculating psychopath with nuclear weapons

 

My heart goes out to the Ukrainian people they are crying out for help but unfortunately without putting our country in grave danger there is little we can do.
Russia should be banned from all sporting and cultural activities until they are out of Ukraine for good.. maybe the soviet population will oust Putin

 

There is much more than a passing resemblance to Hitler in his personal behaviour (e.g. the ranting forms of speech) and his activities (e.g. the expansionism) in this. Though there is a generally unwilling populace this time, annexing Ukraine is Putin's version of the Anschluß -- given the way he considers Ukraine and Russia, Ukrainians and Russians, to be one. The question remains whether or not he will stop there, or else who becomes the Sudentenland/Czechs and Poland? If he has gone too far down the road of megalomania/madness, then only his death will start us on the road to a solution. Problem is, this type of leader is usually very well protected. Who from his inner circle and confidantes could be turned to enter upon a suicide mission? Otherwise, who can put a missile right in to whatever physical space he happens to be occupying?

RCB

 

I see two old nazi friends, Germany and Italy have refused to block Russia from Swift.

All 3 have blood on their hands, scum bags