UK Politics

Apart from 'Alba' eh .. ?

 

They have always held themselves out as a centre left party but the point remains.

All the usual suspects and commentators who are up in arms about the smallest hint of wrongdoing when its a Tory don't care when it's not. It shows its not about morals or being interested in holding politicians to high standards, its simply an ingrained and inbuilt dislike of one particular political party.

 

Which is simply a breakaway party from the SNP. The fact remains that, apart from the specifically Scottish separatist faction, which is a small proportion of those in the left of centre in Britain, the vast majority of the left does not advocate the breakup of the Union as you originally implied.

 

Except that the whole of the media - right and left - clearly do care about it, otherwise it wouldn't be dominating all the recent headlines.

You have clearly got a bee in your bonnet that the Tories are being unfairly scapegoated because you don't agree with the focus on Partygate. The vast majority of the population, however, don't share your view.

The press will target any hint of a scandal, whether right or left, if it leads to a good story. The idea that our overwhelmingly right-leaning print media is biased against the Tories is beyond parody.

 

I'm not talking about the media though. I haven't mentioned the media at all. I'm talking about individuals on places like Twitter and forums like this.

 

You said 'the commentators' in your original post. If commentators aren't the media then I'm a Dutchman.

I don't see anyone on here defending the SNP.
It's clearly a massive scandal which throws the recent leadership election into major credibility doubt, given that the winner explicitly stood as the continuity candidate. It also has the potential to hugely benefit Labour so I'm buying in the popcorn and enjoying the show.

The only reason it doesn't get as much profile on here from critics of the government is because it's Scotland, so somewhat removed from the activities of the UK government which much more directly affect our lives here

 

If I'd have meant the media I'd have said the media. I used the word to illustrate that it was wider than that.

Nobody is defending them but once again that's not the point. All of the usual people who would be attacking anything to do with the Tories are completely silent.

Either people believe in high moral standard in politics and will call out where standards are lower than they should be or they just like to bash the Tories at every opportunity. For quite a lot of people at the moment it's looking like it's just the latter.

 

Who are these people you are referring to?

Any party that's been in power for thirteen years and has presided over the biggest fall in living standards and public services in living memory, not to mention all the sleaze, nepotism, hypocrisy and scandalous waste that we've seen, are fair game for all the criticism they get.
The SNP are small beer by comparison and, get this, they are a Scottish party, so they simply don't register the same level of interest for most people as the UK government does. Surely even you can see that.

 

You want me to name all the people I follow on Twitter?

Come on. On here you know all the people who criticise a Tory every time they sneeze. You're one of them for a start.

I get it. I can see all the reasons for it. It does diminish the position of moral handwringers slightly though when in reality its all just a bit of a game to poke at a party people - perhaps understandably- don't like. That's my whole point, you agree with it so i don't know what's up with what I'm saying.

 

I don't do Twitter so I've no idea who 'the usual suspects' are on there that you are referring to.

Of course I'm going to have a go at the Tories every chance I get. I've been ideologically opposed to them for as long as I could understand anything about politics, which is going back to the 1960s. I despise them and want them out of government - ideally on a permanent basis. I see that as a moral position and I make no apology for it. It most certainly isn't 'a bit of a game' for me.

What I take issue with is your idea that 'the usual suspects' (whoever they are) are somehow being hypocritical by not piling into the SNP to the same extent as the Tories. It's not hypocrisy, it's simply that the SNP don't command the same level of interest or dislike as a Tory Party that's been mismanaging the country for thirteen years. No one is defending the SNP. I'm quite sure that most on the left are enjoying their discomfiture, as I am, and hoping that Labour benefits from it. But what's going on in Scotland simply doesn't have the same resonance for most of us as the conduct of the UK government.

 

It's simple. If people say "I hate the Tories, I'm gonna be biased against them and have a pop at them every opportunity I get" then that's fine. Its a childish position in my eyes as it is too black and white.....like we're talking about good vs evil I'm some fantasy book but fair enough.

It's when people hide the fact that they have the above position but hide it with statements like "truth is important in politics, we need to hold Politicians to higher standard, etc, etc" and then only actually care about it when it's a Tory they're talking about. They couldn't don't even have an opinion on it if it's a Labour, SNP or Lib Dem MP showing that they're all the same given the chance.

 

It's not a question of 'being biased against them'. That implies irrationality. My dislike of the Tories is based on a fundamental disagreement with their view of the world and their political choices, which I believe to be at worst immoral and at best misguided. That's fundamental political disagreement, not bias.

Of course Labour and other parties should be called out if and when they fail to meet basic standards of decency and probity. I do, however, believe that the Tories are more likely to fall below those standards because their individualistic attitudes makes them more inclined to be blind to (or actively encourage) patronage, lobbying, jobs for the boys and other shortcuts to wealth and success. They are also overwhelmingly from the public school/Oxbridge old school tie network which considers itself a natural governing elite and is happy to pull whatever strings it thinks necessary to maintain that privileged position.

 

And that's all I'm saying.

But people who do it for the Tories don't do it for other parried. Whatever mental gymnastics you want to perform to justify it I don't mind but the fact it happens is my only point.

 

I'm not trying to justify it. All parties should be held to high standards. But politics is highly adversarial - it's a contest for votes and power. People will always emphasise the faults of those they oppose more than those they support.
If Labour had been in power for 13 years then the right would be using every means possible to undermine them whilst ignoring/burying/minimising any Tory misdemeanours. You're making it out as though this is unique to 'the usual suspects' on the left, but it's the nature of adversarial politics and the right are no different from the left on this issue.

 

Potentially and in theory and that's fine but let's at least call it what it is then rather than saying that people care about morals in politics, they don't, they just care about trashing what they see as their opponents. Its a much different position and routed in the fact that some see the right as "bad" and the left as "good".

 

Another convenient example. I could probably find 10 posters on here who called Johnson out when he said Starmer had failed to prosecute Saville.

But are the same people calling out Starmer for signing off these adverts which are clearly not true? Nope.

Nobody believe Sunak believes child sex abusers shouldn't go to prisons.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/08/emily-thornberry-defends-labour-advert-rishi-sunak

 

Of course people on the left see the left as good and the right as bad. I'm ideologically and morally opposed to the Tory world view. I see it as selfish, individualistic, lacking compassion and based on a nonsensical, disproven theory that making the rich richer will benefit everyone. I, therefore, believe that the left viewpoint is more moral than the right. However, I'm well aware that right wingers see those on the left as morally wrong. It comes down to a difference in ideology and beliefs. I'm constantly astounded that the ultra religious, gun-toting, anti-abortion, ultra nationalist Trump supporters believe that they are on a moral crusade to save their country when, to me, they are a set of bigoted, racist, immoral hypocrites led by a man with no morals whatsoever, and they cannot see the contradiction in this. Such is politics

 

Suppose it's being so cheerful that keeps you going .. ?

 

Your characterisations do yourself no favours. Seeing your opponents as lesser than yourself is not a good humanistic position and leads exactly to what I'm talking about........judging peoples actions on whether they're on "your side" or not rather than the actual actions themselves.

I don't see myself as selfish or individualistic to be honest and I don't actually see why US politics is any more relevant to the debate than China's.

I do see people on the left as generally well meaning but simplistic and idealistic. And pretty much every debate on here back's that up whether it being Albanians (or Germans) not being able to gain asylum, explaining what an energy price cap is, marginal tax rates, the need to be competitive globally or global tax rates people on the left always want what's "best" but don't seem to take any time to see how things actually work.

 

Whether it's left or right politically the problem is the people at the top. Whatever the colour it ends up the same...self interest and power and the left wing regimes are no better than those on the right. Aligning yourself with one or the other could be seen as naive because at some point that direction of self interest has to be halted. At least here that does happen. Right gets in for a while and gets voted out when we get fed up with where we're going, same with the left t. Voting should be a statement on how you see the landscape at the time, not just down to your selected ideology. Anyone who thinks that the people at the top of either side have our best interests at heart need to give themselves a shake and realize we don't matter as much as we'd like to think. Politics is for politicians, not for the people in spite of ideologies.