Dublin Riots

Dave, I wrote a long post, all about the fact that most of the legal immigrants are coming here to work in the health and care system. No mention of agriculture or other jobs. You then replied saying:

"I've posted before if there is a need for people from abroad who want to take these jobs you've mentioned we should manage the situation with work visas Germany did it off years with regards cheap ok Turkish labour but only while work was available, but that should not mean they then have the right to bring other relatives and relations in to the UK.
Maybe one route to go down is to get those within our society who believe being unemplyed is a life style choice to take these jobs or to lose their benefits".

The only jobs I mentioned were health and social care jobs, so if you reply to me saying 'these jobs you've mentioned' - ie health and social care - then of course that's what I thought you were referring to. I wasn't scoring points at all, I was simply sticking to what you responded to - ie my post about health and social care jobs. You subsequently moved the goalposts to raise agriculture jobs, because that's what you want to talk about, even though the numbers involved are trivial compared to health and social care.

We issued 322,000 work visas in the last year. Most of them to Indians, Nigerians and Zimbabweans. Most of them to work in health and social care. We need these people, because European workers have stopped coming here since Brexit. And, of course, many of them brought dependants with them, because otherwise they wouldn't have come here and we'd have even bigger workforce shortages than we already have. The Tories have largely privatised social care since 2010. Virtually all council run care and nursing homes have closed and most home care services have been privatised too. This has forced down wages because the private companies have to pay less than local authorities to make any profit. So very few Brits now want to work in social care. Forcing the unemployed to work there simply won't work; they don't have the skills or, often, the right attitudes. So, until some government starts to tackle this issue of low pay in the care sector, to attract suitable Brits to do the work, these immigrants are going to keep on coming, or our health and care systems will collapse.

No. I don't think it's a problem to the extent that you do. Obviously we ought to try to stop the boats, because people are dying in the channel on a regular basis, but the Tories have proved utterly incompetent in doing that. And, yes, I do think Labour would have more success in dealing with it because they haven't completely pissed off most of the European countries like the Tories have. But i don't believe that 'these people' are such a threat to our society. I think it suits a certain narrative to label them all as crooks, feckless, workshy etc and I think that's largely bullshit. Of course some are bogus/spongers/crooks but they're a minority. Most successful asylum seekers end up in work because, guess what, we have workforce shortages, an ageing population and we need these people.

As far as asylum numbers coming here is concerned, we take far fewer asylum seekers than many other European countries. And, no, I don't think it's fair that just because Greece and Italy happen to be nearer to the problem areas in Africa/Asia/Middle East that they should have to take them all. Let's face it, many of the problems in those countries have their roots in the way our ancestors conquered, enslaved, exploited and unnaturally divided those countries for 300 years. So now the chickens are coming home to roost, I'm afraid. We told those people how lucky they were to be part of the glorious British Empire. We gave them British customs and the English language. We invited their grandparents here in the 50s and 60s to fill our shortages in mills and factories. So we should hardly be surprised if many of them feel more comfortable seeking asylum here than in Italy, Germany etc.

 

I strongly suspect the numbers simply coming here as economic migrants is overstated, for political purposes. But, essentially, I agree with you. Those people give the asylum system a bad name, which results in genuine asylum seekers getting labelled as spongers etc. The answer is to sort out the legal system. The biggest deterrent to coming here under bogus claims is the knowledge that you will be quickly seen in court, identified as bogus and shipped back home without delay. The Tories have totally screwed our legal system in all sorts of ways, but particularly in dealing with asylum claims. sort that out and the number of bogus claims with very quickly reduce.

 

Well that amongst most of your other comments just highlight your naivety... let's hope wisdom becomes you sooner rather than later.....

 

Paranoia rules, ok?

You really should stop listening to all that right wing conspiracy theory bullshit.

 

Yeah, you're right, there's nothing bad going on, it's all made up...................still don't want to live in your world though.....

 

In my line of work i've got to see what real Asylum is and just how depraved some of these societies are. I worked with an 18 year old lad who was 'labouring', wasn't supposed to be working but you know what Bradford is like, i guess the slave trade only fits one narrative eh? Anyway, finds himself over here from Guinea because he stood up for his 11 year old sister who was to be married away to a village elder. Unicef got him out of the local prison he was incarerated in, ironically ran by his uncle. Understood at the time he'll probably not see his family again. I remember 2 afghan lads on one job, over here because one of the lads brothers was an afghan policeman, Taliban found out and wanted him to walk into a US army base with a bomb vest on as he had access. He refused and unsurprisingly disappeared one night. Quite a few other stories but won't bore you all. What i will say is all of those involved were being exploited over here but i guess it was better than being back home.
So i do understand that there instances where a safe haven is needed. But these were lads officially allowed over here, the vast majority of those coming now are not.

 

I'm quoting the illegals not those who go through the proper channels why would we be debating the people who come to this country legally ?, I cant wait for Labour to get into power and bring this illegal economic migration situation to an end but we know that won't happen as long as we're in the ECHR, an outdated organisation who was to over see a very different situation when it was formed in the1950s.
We're not in EU so how many they/we take is irrelevant, and I'm accused of going of topic now you'd bringing up what happened during the British Empire, I'm not responcable for my ancestors just how far back do you go to try and win the debate, I know let's go back to the time the Romans ruled Britan, unbelievable Steve.

 

It amazes me how conveniently people forget that these boat people are buying a seat on an inflatable to come to the UK, explotation at its best.
Remember the Twenty-three Chinese cockle pickers who died after becoming trapped by incoming tides off the Lancashire coast on the evening of February 5 2004, illegal immigrants working for a gang leader, or the Vietnamese migrants who died when being smuggled into the UK, they are the tip of the iceberg but lets turn a blind eye they’re fleeing persecution, that might also be the case with regards many of the boat people as few have documentation to prove it when they land.
We see it on a regular basis news item's showing houses having far more people living there lilegally and the landlord completely flouting heath and safety regulations.

 

Its more convenient to cover slavery up as a white owned problem, suits the narratives at play on main stream media.

 

If really is getting silly now, I can't see a solution whilst we're still governed by the ECHR.

 

Of course we don’t go back to the Romans. That’s relevant to nothing. But the impact of the British Empire on the culture of our ex colonies is obviously relevant to why some people want to come here rather than going to other countries. If you can’t understand that then I can’t help you.

 

Of course it’s not irrelevant how many asylum seekers other countries take. Asylum numbers are nothing to do with being in or out of the EU and never were. Like most civilised countries, we are signed up to numerous international treaties on asylum and refugees that have bugger all to do with the EU. You raised the issue about asylum seekers stopping in the nearest safe country, not me. I’m simply pointing out that we should take our fair share of genuine asylum seekers, promptly send home those who aren’t genuine, and not expect countries on the southern edge of Europe to take all of of them just because they happen to be nearer the problematic regions - especially as many of those problems (whether you like it or not) were either caused or exacerbated by our colonial activities.

But the point you’re completely missing is that the vast majority of people coming here - ie the figure that caused all the recent outrage when the number went up above 700k for the year - are coming here legally to cover workforce shortages. Even if we stopped all the illegal boat people and those coming in lorries etc it would make no perceptible difference to those who just don’t want to see foreign looking people around them. They’d still be bursting a blood vessel and the numbers coming here would still keep going up and up, because it’s not the illegals that are causing the big rise in numbers.

People get all steamed up about a relatively small number of illegal immigrants who are pretty insignificant in the overall numbers. Meanwhile, people look around them and see the demographic of their local population changing; they don’t like that so they conflate that with illegal immigration by boats, when it’s actually people who’ve come here to work or who were born here.
Yes, of course we should do our best to stop illegal immigration, but stopping that won’t stop the vast majority who are coming here to work and thereby changing what the country looks like.

And , actually, no you weren’t quoting the illegals, so stop moving the goalposts. You explicitly said that we should consider making people on benefits do the jobs that those I was talking about - ie the legal immigrants coming to work in health and social care - are coming here to do. That was sod all to do with illegal immigrants. We were both clearly talking about those coming herei on work visas.

And I’m afraid that most people haven’t a clue about what the impact of leaving the European Convention on Human Rights would be. It’s enormously bigger than just its impact on immigration cases. The ECHR isn’t a physical body, it’s a set of legal articles that impact on all aspects of life. Huge amounts of our law in all sorts of areas are now dependent on judgements based on the ECHR. Quite apart from causing massive issues in Northern Ireland over the Good Friday Agreement, leaving the ECHR would cause legal chaos in all sorts of areas.

 

Oh, there’s shitloads of bad stuff going on. No doubt about it. But most of it has feck all to do with the simplistic conspiracy shite that you’re so busy obsessing about.

 

Are you seriously trying to deny that Poland and Hungary are highly racist societies?
Or do you agree that they are highly racist, but you think that’s a good thing?

 

You're a lost cause lad, as i've said before...everybody's out of step except you, champion of lost causes....

 

So the millions of teachers, public sector professionals and many other liberal middle class voters who think like me are just a figment of my imagination, are they?

Funny how I have scores of friends, former colleagues, old university mates, plus hundreds of acquaintances through my musical activities, and 95% of them think like I do, or are actually more radical. And, guess what, they all have scores of other friends and contacts that I've never met who also think liberally. But, in your closeted world, all these people apparently don't exist.

Don't forget that the Brexit vote - which closely correlated as conservative Brexiteers vs liberal Remainers - was split almost 50/50 and since then the electorate has become more, not less, liberal, as older conservative voters have died and younger, more liberal, people have reached voting age.

It's high time you recognised that your parochial Little Englander world is not what the whole of this country looks like any more. And the demographic of this forum - overwhelmingly white, male, working class football fans in an unusually divisive northern post industrial city with exceptionally high minority ethnic communities - is nothing like typical of this country as a whole.

Immigration is well behind cost of living, health, social care, the environment and cost of house buying as the key voter priorities nationwide. But not amongst ageing paranoid right wingers, of course.

 

What a load of nonsense. I'd suggest you visit those countries and see how harmonious and pleasant their societies are before making such unsubstantiated claims based on your head being buried in the far-left rag Guardian 24/7

 

I've been to Budapest and Krakow and can thoroughly recommend both places to visit. Probably two of the best Cities I've visited and I've been to a decent number.

Berlin next in February, bring it on.