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Brexit

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Park bantam, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Tony Wilkinson

    Tony Wilkinson Well-Known Member
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    Expect a knock on the door sometime soon.......

    download.jpe
     
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  2. Campbell's soup

    Campbell's soup Well-Known Member
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    E3E6FED6-BBAC-4401-9899-C8314ED4DD39.jpeg
    ...or, if ya lucky.
     
  3. Clity

    Clity Well-Known Member

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    @Bronco i dont agree with you in anyway about brexit but this is a public forum and copying text from social media is not a copyright infringement.

    The text you copied was absolute dross but still who cares its just a point you wanted and should be entitled to make
     
  4. Bronco

    Bronco Well-Known Member
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    Don't worry about it, you know how I post and how anyone could think that was my article is beyond me.
    Thanks for your comment :thumbup:.
     
  5. Tolly856

    Tolly856 Well-Known Member
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    My own take on this?

    Who actually backs Brexit? Agriculture is against it, industry is against it, services are against it. None of them, needless to say, support a no-deal Brexit. Yet the Conservative party, which favoured European union for economic reasons over many decades, has become not only Eurosceptic – it is set on a course regarded by every reputable capitalist state and the great majority of capitalist enterprises as deeply foolish.

    If any prime minister in the past had shown such a determined ignorance of the dynamics of global capitalism, the massed ranks of British capital would have stepped in to force a change of direction. Yet today, while the CBI and the Financial Times call for the softest possible Brexit, the Tory party is no longer listening.

    Why not? One answer is that the Tories now represent the interests of a small section of capitalists who actually fund the party. An extreme version of this argument was floated by the prime minister’s sister, Rachel, and the former chancellor Philip Hammond – both of whom suggested that hard Brexit is being driven by a corrupt relationship between the prime minister and his hedge-fund donors who have shorted the pound and the whole economy. This is very unlikely to be correct, but it may point to a more disconcerting truth.

    The fact is that the capitalists who do support Brexit tend to be very loosely tied to the British economy. This is true of hedge funds, of course – but also true for manufacturers such as Sir James Dyson, who no longer produces in the UK. The owners of several Brexiter newspapers are foreign, or tax resident abroad – as is the pro-Brexit billionaire Sir James Ratcliffe of Ineos.

    But the real story is something much bigger. What is interesting is not so much the connections between capital and the Tory party but their increasing disconnection. Today much of the capital in Britain is not British and not linked to the Conservative party – where for most of the 20th century things looked very different. Once, great capitalists with national, imperial and global interests sat in the Commons and the Lords as Liberals or Conservatives. Between the wars, the Conservatives emerged as the one party of capital, led by great British manufacturers such as Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain. The Commons and the Lords were soon fuller than ever of Tory businessmen, from the owner of Meccano toys to that of Lyons Corner House.

    After the second world war, such captains of industry avoided the Commons, but the Conservative party was without question the party of capital and property, one which stood against the party of organised labour. Furthermore, the Tories represented an increasingly national capitalism, protected by import controls, and closely tied to an interventionist and technocratic state that wanted to increase exports of British designed and made goods. A company like Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI) saw itself, and indeed was, a national champion. British industry, public and private, was a national enterprise.

    Since the 1970s things have changed radically. Today there is no such thing as British national capitalism. London is a place where world capitalism does business – no longer one where British capitalism does the world’s business. Everywhere in the UK there are foreign-owned enterprises, many of them nationalised industries, building nuclear reactors and running train services from overseas. When the car industry speaks, it is not as British industry but as foreign enterprise in the UK. The same is true of many of the major manufacturing sectors – from civil aircraft to electrical engineering – and of infrastructure. Whatever the interests of foreign capital, they are not expressed through a national political party. Most of these foreign-owned businesses, not surprisingly, are hostile to Brexit.

    Brexit is the political project of the hard right within the Conservative party, and not its capitalist backers. In fact, these forces were able to take over the party in part because it was no longer stabilised by a powerful organic connection to capital, either nationally or locally.

    Brexit also speaks to the weakness of the state, which was itself once tied to the governing party – and particularly the Conservatives. The British state once had the capacity to change the United Kingdom and its relations to the rest of the world radically and quickly, as happened in the second world war, and indeed on accession to the common market.

    Today the process from referendum to implementation will take, if it happens, nearly as long as the whole second world war. The modern British state has distanced itself from the productive economy and is barely able to take an expert view of the complexities of modern capitalism. This was painfully clear in the Brexit impact sectoral reports the government was forced to publish forced to publish – they were internet cut-and-paste jobs.

    The state can no longer undertake the radical planning and intervention that might make Brexit work. That would require not only an expert state, but one closely aligned with business. The preparations would by now be very visible at both technical and political levels. But we have none of that. Instead we have the suggestion that nothing much will happen on no deal, that mini-deals will appear. The real hope of the Brexiters is surely that the EU will cave and carry on trading with the UK as if nothing had changed. Brexit is a promise without a plan. But in the real world Brexit does mean Brexit, and no deal means no deal.

    Brexit is a necessary crisis, and has provided a long overdue audit of British realities. It exposes the nature of the economy, the new relations of capitalism to politics and the weakness of the state. It brings to light, in stunning clarity, Brexiters’ deluded political understanding of the UK’s place in the world. From a new understanding, a new politics of national improvement might come; without it we will remain stuck in the delusional, revivalist politics of a banana monarchy.
     
  6. Tolly856

    Tolly856 Well-Known Member
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    You're right. We should stop writing our own posts and just copy and paste our information from elsewhere. It's easier, quicker and doesn't really matter as long as it mirrors our views.
     
  7. Get Rid Of It

    Get Rid Of It Well-Known Member
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  8. Bronco

    Bronco Well-Known Member
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    Only you seemed to have a problem with it, I posted it for debate and most posters who replied were quite happy to do so, but no surprise with regards your comment Taweed Ali.
     
  9. Tony Wilkinson

    Tony Wilkinson Well-Known Member
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    Thought that would be the case, thanks for clarifying...
     
  10. Clity

    Clity Well-Known Member

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    yeah, the clue for the mod and social media content is the big 'share' button that sits alongside it.
     
  11. Clity

    Clity Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should copy someone elses words who can make the same argument only more succinctly.

    What is the point at this stage in trying to argue for or against brexit? its now tribal and purely ideological.

    Regardless of who is to blame we are in one hell of a mess right now. If we leave or if we remain we will never be the same again as a nation. If we leave or remain we can be sure of civil unrest.

    No scenario I play out in my head brings out a good result. Especially in the short term. Because the sides are still more or less 50/50 split. When the impasse does finally break it will be the side that holds the most power, usually economically that wins. History shows however that those scenarios are rarely peaceful in nature.

    People on both sides need to stand up and be honest about the whole thing. If they dont then it will end in conflict mark my words. History is cyclical.
     
  12. trevor

    trevor Well-Known Member
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    This would be good if it was not mostly wrong and complete rubbish,
     
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  13. trevor

    trevor Well-Known Member
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    The two options of leave or remain need to be distilled to the two futures they offer the UK,

    One, Is to remain and become less powerful and have less and less political power in the world becoming poorer and poorer in the process become a vassel state of an all encompassing but economically shrinking EU demanding more and more from the richer nation members to survive,
    Two, Is to leave and eventually forge our own way in the world becoming more and more relevant to the global economy and the political power that goes with it, We will become an independent state providing a high wage low tax tiger economy sharing prosperity to the nation becoming a major trading nation in our own right.
    I Know which I choose
     
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  14. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Well-Known Member
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    Dream on.
     
  15. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Well-Known Member
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    Two words. Divide, conquer.
     
  16. Tolly856

    Tolly856 Well-Known Member
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    I don't know mate.

    I posted some info I don't really understand to encourage debate. Iv'e also stated my own opinion in there somewhere but it might take you a little while to find it as I'm refusing to distinguish between my own writing and someone else's.

    It's not at all confusing and if you don't like my style then tough shit.
     
  17. Bronco

    Bronco Well-Known Member
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    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:tired_face:.
     
  18. Dionysus

    Dionysus Member

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    This err... isn’t a very fair comparison of the available options.

    As a thought experiment, I’m wondering at what point people would consider swapping their Brexit vote. Say, as part of a number of unrealistic hypothetical scenarios, the world were to put major economic sanctions on us as part of a reaction to Brexit; medicine companies refuse to export any medicines to the UK; the government pledged used Brexit as an opportunity to dump literal toxic waste on British soil. Where is the boundary? Is your vote cast no matter what the circumstances? I feel like there is a huge sunk cost to people’s votes (on both sides) that it’s a win at any cost approach. A lot of ridiculous behaviour (on both sides) has been excused by that particular side’s supporters already and it doesn’t appear to have shifted the dial.

    Would anything shift anyone’s opinion at all? Is debate on this completely futile?

    I’m not trying to ask which side is right or wrong, but at what point do you go “actually, you know what, not sure about this...”?
     
  19. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Well-Known Member
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    Regardless of who wrote it, this is spot on.
    Virtually all of our industry has been allowed to die or sold to foreign investors. Those with wealth in this country squirrel it away in offshore finds instead of investing it here.

    The idea that we will leave the EU and become a succesful low tax tiger economy is laughable. The EU is by far our biggest market for imports and exports. It will not give us any kind of a favourable trade deal if we try to undercut it by dumping employment protections, environmental and trading standards. We would be crippled by tariffs from our nearest and most important trading market and most of the foreign investment will pull out accordingly. Anyone who thinks we can easily replace that free trade by trading with more distant lands is living in cloud cuckoo land. It will take many years to even negotiate the trade deals, from a position of abject weakness, and decades to get our economic productivity back without all the current foreign investment. Meanwhile our exports to the EU will be crippled by tariffs and the huge amount of stuff (eg food) that we import from Europe will become much more expensive. It's a recipe for economic disaster, which is why virtually the whole of British capital is opposed to it.
     
    #1839 Offcomedun, Oct 9, 2019 at 8:44 PM
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019 at 8:58 PM
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  20. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Well-Known Member
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    Not one Brexit supporter has given me a shred of evidence about how Brexit will benefit this country. All I hear is a load of jingoistic platitudes about 'having faith' in my country and wildly optimistic forecasts of future economic benefits that are based on zero evidence and fly in the face of all logic and economic wisdom.
    If and when I'm given some genuine examples of how our economy can prosper without all the trading advantages of being in the EU (ie free trade and highly advantageous trade deals with non-EU countries negotiated via the economic muscle of the EU) then I might start to reconsider my stance. But all I hear to date is pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, so I'm nowhere near believing that Brexit will be anything other than an economic disaster and No Deal an economic catastrophe.
     

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