Players taking the knee

I think even BLM UK formally distance themselves from BLM USA.

Absolutely agree with all of your post except the last paragraph. When you have people using the same language, same imagery, same gestures and often have the same people discussing both aspects then the interconection becomes difficult to distinguish.

If you asked 100 people which organisation these photos related to....



100% of people would say "Black Lives Matter" nobody would say Kick it Out, Nobody would mention Dr King or Josiah Wedgwood, nobody would actually say " Well these people aren't actually supporting an organisation they are supporting a general idea of the same name which is completely unaffiliated to any organistaion blah, blah, blah" The two are intertwined in popular culture unless you dig through the details of it.

 

This equality argument is also somewhat problematic and complicated for a couple of big reasons.

Firstly - you are measuring equality of opportunity in terms of outcomes. This is essentially the 'equity' argument that unless ethnic minorities/ genders etc have an equal share of wealth / power then society is unequal. It is far too simplistic of an argument and discounts individual choice. People such as Jordan Peterson counter-argue this very well.

Second is perception. We only ever highlight areas where there is disproportionate representation (and often we seem to conflate America's diversity issues with our own). In the UK it is estimated that 13.7% of the population is non-white.

In football we often cite underrepresentation of black managers
7 current EFL managers are black (8%) - underrepresentation? sure. But at best it's statistical cherry-picking.
BAME footballers are significantly over-represented. As are BAME pundits.

In politics:
5/23 (22%) of the cabinet is BAME
10% of MPs are non-white.
I'd say that's pretty diverse

In big-business, representation is admittedly currently very low following some high-profile retirements in the last few years.

In music, I'd say it is pretty well represented. Over the last few years nearly 50% of BRIT awards were given to non-white recipients.

Overall, yes there are definitely areas where there is under-representation but there are also plenty of areas where there is overrepresentation. If the argument is that we need more black CEOs do we also not need more white footballers? How is this criteria set?

 

Okay, but why football in the UK ?
My postie has just been and he didn't take the knee before he put the post through the box...

 

Once again completely agree and I think it's much better to accept that it's sometimes not east to distinguish between the two rather than saying people are ignoring the distinction. The confusion is completely intentional and to some degree it's doing exactly what it was intended to do.

The problem is that while BLM adopted taking the knee it was actually the movement that adopted the 'Black Lives Matter' phraseology which was already clearly affiliated to the organisation of the same name. They're both borrowing from each other so extracting the two for anything simple (like a gesture for instance) rather than an in depth discussion is not going to be 100% effective.

 

The old classic I have black friends as you refer to happens to be true whether you want to believe it or not, in fact the lad in question has actually seen city play at Rochdale when we won 4-0.

As for inflatable bananas I used to watch Burnley at times with school mates when not at city and yes they were thrown towards players Roger Eli is the one I remember who actually stamped on one whilst trying to take a corner.

So you don't like Candace Owens so what are Morgan Freeman Denzel Washington and little Wayne wrong too with their views on BLM?

As for the 9th min regarding sky why do they need to put up BLM at that time clearly it's in reference to amount of time GF neck was knelt on as it's not shown at any minute during a game.

Supporters aren't against players speaking out against racism but they are opposed to players following the same gesture as BLM.

As I have said before the gesture has divided fans where kick out racism never did and if the players had decided to have used another gesture instead or indeed been kneeling before BLM started to do so then the conversation would have been a non starter it's that simple but clearly you don't get that.

 

But if you ask 'which organisation these photos relate to', that's a leading question, designed to deceive, since the BLM organisation is a tiny fraction of the BLM movement and not what most people mean when they say they support Black Lives Matter.
If you asked people which social movement these pictures relate to they would say Black Lives Matter.
Most people who support Black Lives Matter support the movement, not the organisation just as most people who define themselves as liberal don't join or vote for the Liberal Party.

 

Why has nobody yet acknowledged that there actually isn't much racism in this country anymore, especially at football matches, so maybe the previous anti racist initiatives has had some impact...

 

Of course its a leading question but the point is that nobody would correct it because for the majority there is no distinction in simple terms.

You are quite correct that you'd get the same answer if you asked about "social movement" but that emphasises that they're interchangeable in popular culture rather than them being separate.

I'm not sure your liberal thing works. The understanding of the word Liberal predates the party in the same way as conservative and Conservative. People know the party are tying themselves in with the imagery of the word.

The phrase Black Lives Matter in relation to the organisation and the movement entered the publics consciousness at exactly the same time.

 

So, it is just virtue signalling after all then...?

 

No. Black Lives Matter, the concept, started before BLM Inc, who cynically co-opted the phrase. Most people associate Black Lives Matter, and taking the knee, with the concept/social movement, not the organisation. In fact most are probably not even aware that there is a tiny section of the Black Lives Matter movement that is an actual organisation. Those with a political motive to undermine the wider Black Lives Matter movement insist on defining Black Lives Matter by the tiny political organisation rather than the massive unaffiliated global movement. But that's not what the players or the FA are supporting and most people know that.

 

A very good point and one of the problems when data is cherry picked to suit a narrative or an agenda.

 

The phrase black lives matter or blm was never heard of until the death of George Floyd.

 

You're wrong. Nobody is looking for the incorporation date of BLM Inc and comparing it to Kaepernick or George Floyd are they? They entered popular culture at the same time with people from the BLM organisation given air time and social media time to speak for the BLM movement.

People associate the organisation with the movement. People who follow BLM on Twitter are doing so because they were drawn there by the BLM movement. They are completely intertwined and it's intentional. Every aspect of the movement links to the organisation in popular culture. The fact that most people don't recoginise that there is a US organisation is part of the issue! When they see someone on TV, social media, etc, speaking for BLM talking bout defunding the police, smashing capitalism, violent protests, etc, etc then they are representing the whole of Black Lives Matter - why would people not aware of the Inc think they're not?

But this is why people on the "right" side perpetually lose the discussion with people who disagree. You're told the issue but get bogged down in incorporation dates and which started first when in reality you know that in day to day life the vast majority of people use BLM for both the US organisation and the Movement interchangeably and the imagery, gestures and language used by one are intermixed with those of the other. We either accept that and find solutions to it or blindly shout into the void pretending its not the case.

 

Just because you aren't witnessing it personally doesn't mean it isn't happening. For many people, racism is still impacting on their lives on an almost daily basis.

 

Funny because I'd not heard of it and I'm guessing neither had many people on here or in this country. But then the world of social media has changed a lot in seven years what didn't 'trend' back then becomes more trendy these days. So while your research may indicate the origins of the 'movement' I stand by my original point that blm has built up on the back of the death of George Floyd. Saying that, my original point has little relevance in the grand scheme of things. It was more an observation than a slight on blm. The various views on blm on this thread should not detract from the real purpose of equal rights for black people.

 

What do you reckon the penetration rate was between the 2013 killing and the George Floyd murder? 5% of people first heard it in 2013 do you think?