Brexit

The point is that No Deal Brexit would be a catastrophe and it is not what people voted for in the referendum.
The public were told that we would get an easy deal with the EU with free trade and customs harmony without paying to be members. A small majority was secured on that basis. The referendum gave no mandate whatsoever for No Deal Brexit, yet now we are being told that's what people voted for, which is bullsh!t.

Labour wants to ensure that Johnson can't use prorogation and/or a GE to crash us out by default against the majority view of parliament. Johnson can't be trusted to comply with the law if this bill passed or to stick to an agreed election date. So Labour needs to make sure that the extension is implemented before agreeing to a General Election. It's a perfectly sensible strategy to prevent a serial liar driving us off a cliff.

 

The absolute last thing we need is yet another referendum. This would completely undermine the previous 2016 vote and put even more distance between the people and the political classes. Who gets to say which referendum get precedence? Which is more valid?

 

Why not? A referendum, under STV, in which the real choices are presented - ie No Deal Brexit, the EU deal on offer, or Remain - would be clear and democratic. If the people knowingly voted for No Deal Brexit then, fair enough, that would be the decision that would be followed. As a confirmed Remainer I could accept that.
What I can't accept is a small majority for an undefined Brexit - persuaded by a campaign which promised 'have cake and eat it' - being spun as a mandate for No Deal, which it emphatically wasn't. That's not democracy. The country didn't vote for No Deal in 2016.

 

When people voted in the 2016 referendum they had been repeatedly told that we would get an easy deal and that any talk of No Deal was just Project Fear - it wasn't going to happen. If the Leave side had explicitly campaigned for a No Deal Brexit it would have comfortably lost the referendum.

There isn't, and never has been, a mandate for No Deal. It's massively disingenuous to claim that there is.

 

I fundamentally disagree with you. I hate referendum’s they are like a sledge hammer to open a nut. My stance is a democrat, the ppl of this country were told this was a one off they would not be asked again and furthermore they were promised that whatever the decision the government would implement the result. We cannot go back and say, tell you what we didn’t like your answer, we think the campaign for leave made it sound too easy, we think you didn’t know what you were voting for so we are going to ask you again to decipher which type of Brexit you would like. Well know EU tactic is to keep asking the question until they get the right answer.

Whilst we are on the subject of liars, ask Corbyn how many times has he opposed the UK being part of the EU,

 

I personally thought the EU would not give us a deal no way no how. They are fundamentally against any country leaving the EU and were always going to be difficult more especially as we are net contributors. They are also I democratic. We shall soon find out what the ppl of this country think. Labour and it’s cronies can’t run forever. I maybe wrong, but I think electorally they are in deep trouble.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Yes we will.

The country did not vote for No Deal Brexit. Only a minority want it. But Johnson and the far right disaster capitalists of the ERG are trying to foist it on us, having repeatedly said before the the referendum that No Deal was just Project Fear.

The one bit I agree with you about is on referenda. I don't like them at all. I particularly don't like them when the terms of what is being voted on are totally undefined, as in 2016. You can't combine all the numerous potential types of Brexit under one simple 'Leave' vote and then claim that gives a mandate for the most extreme version. That's neither democratic nor the 'will of the people'.

 

You want to grow up lad

 

For me, this is the only way through this.

The can of worms was opened with the referendum, it needs to be closed with another. It is easy to dredge up quotes from key members of the Leave campaign who took this view in 2016.

I don’t want to leave either, but I will absolutely accept the result of a referendum that asks specific questions which informs HOW we leave the EU, if that is what the majority want to do now. I don’t think a general election solves it, an election vote encompasses too much beyond the specific Brexit issue, however much it might be focussed on Brexit. If the outcome is not leaving the EU, I can then have sympathy with those who feel their referendum vote was ignored and also concerns about how the democratic process has worked.

 

I think we are at a stalemate that will never end thus ensuing that nothing will change. What i do notice throughout this is politicians blaming everyone else but themselves. The established main parties are to blame for every last bit of this mess, not the berated voters who had the damn cheek to tick a ballot box square. I'm not bothered either way now but am sick to death of the shift of blame.
All these protesters on the streets the last few weeks, instead of standing outside parliament waving your EU flags, why not spend your energy asking why the sackless dimwits in the house allowed Nigel Farage to run a PR campaign literally unopposed. If they had done their jobs right in the first place none of this would have happened, instead their sheer utter incompetence has caused this mess. They are the ones to blame.

 

If we had a referendum and leave won again by a small majority the remainers would still not give in and accept it, It would be a pointless exercise where only a remain vote will be accepted by MPs
This current lot of MPs cannot or will not follow the will of the peoples referendum and are a complete shower on all sides, The only way through this is to shake them up and change the makeup of parliament either way with a general election.

 

I get all that no trust, hardly unique to the Tory party.
Boris is correct they have taken the only tool he can use to try and get a better deal than May got.
Once again if they wanted a deal May had one on offer but even that was too extreme for Labour, they don't want to leave the EU in any form.
Hopefully a general election will make it quite plain to the electorate vote Labour, Green,Lib/Dem, Change etc you vote to remain,a vote for the Tories or Brexit will mean out without a deal if ths EU won't move on the May deal.
But like it or not this situation has damaged any credibility MPs had the next election will possible be the last I cast my vote in and thats very sad for a guy who has ALLWAYS use my vote something many don't have the opportunity of doing.

 

Change the make up of parliament? How exactly? Its a closed shop old boys mentality. Johnson is a standing joke and he and his ilk aren't fit to run this country. But good god whats the alternative? Boris has kicked up an almighty stink by wanting to shut down parliament, well he can shut it permanently for me, i wouldn't miss any of them.

 

A general election will change nothing mate, its the same shit different day.

 

Cracking post @Storck says it all.

 

Typical remainers reply, keep voting till the great unwashed get it right, shocking ideology.

 

May came back with a deal ( of sorts) why didnt Labour vote for that, come on Steve they dont want to leave the EU and screw the electorate.

 

A great read and a good summing up. As a country we literally are like the Bismarck, completely rudderless going round in circles waiting for someone to put us out of our misery. Unfortunately our ship is unsinkable, which means it will just keep going round in circles while the dimwits shout Islamaphobic or Anti semitic at each across the decks.

 

Why the tag in the thread that I can not remember taking him an very active part in