Would you donate?

Fordy117 · May 7, 2020

Storck said: ↑

Cost for away games will be lower for those that usually travel to the games
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter.

People will be home. Other influences come in to play. Wife/hubby, midget will just see it as watching tv.

Also factor in one season ticket required per household to watch. So, family of 4 goes to city the just need one TV pass.

Look, the EFL have to prove football will take place next season because it seems stuck and then will fans be there at some point.

Fordy117 · May 7, 2020

Keefly Bantam said: ↑

You need a girlfriend or a FWB asap.
Click to expand...

WilsdenBantam · May 7, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

Way back around 2000, maybe even before we were promoted, the club sold a few shares to fans. I don't recall the precise % which were on sale but was a lot less than 1%. There wasn't a huge take up - about 350 fans took up the offer (I still have a copy of the share list from that time) - and they even received a dividend in a couple of years. Of course, they then all lost their investment during the administration.

Let's suppose for a moment that Rupp would agree to sell shares in the club to fans. Apart from the warm and cosy feeling of owning some shares in the club, with no likelihood of a dividend being paid in the foreseeable future, what would attract fans to buy the shares?
Click to expand...

Not much, except this would be to save the club instead of donating for nothing you’d at least give people some sort of incentive. In 2000 we weren’t in trouble and were on the up, I brought fan shares up as an alternative to donating to save the club instead of metaphorically chucking money in a bucket, you get a piece of the club even if only symbolically. It’d get more interest than a simple donation imo.

Park bantam · May 7, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

14k fans are not going to buy TV & season ticket combo.

When reality kicks in staying at home on a Saturday at 3pm when their wife, boyfriend, hubby, kids or midget are wanting them to do something because of them being in the house.

Then the game will be on private stream.

Also factor is extra cost for away games then wife, boyfriend, hubby or midget kicks off at the extra cost.

Take up will be 5-8k Max.
Click to expand...

It’s money that could help,us survive this crisis

Fordy117 · May 7, 2020

Park bantam said: ↑

It’s money that could help,us survive this crisis
Click to expand...

This time is different to any time before. Global recession coming up.

Families will be thinking of themselves.

SimonW · May 8, 2020

Storck said: ↑

the ones I have seen don’t use peer to peer
Click to expand...

They might not advertise it but they almost certainly are. The resources needed to stream video content is signficant especially live content and these services due to their dubious legal nature don't have access to the data centres and the cdn's the big players in the market have access to. And they certainly don’t have the ability to install cache severs directly at the ISP's like Netflix, BBC, Amazon and others are able to. And many of the legit services either deploy a degree of p2p (Spotify does for example) or experimented with it before isp cache servers became viable for reducing costs and improving user performance

Fordy117 · May 8, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

You don't have to read it if you don't want. @Storck asked a question, one that has a complex answer
Click to expand...

Ignore them mate I thought i was interesting and if Bradford City related kind of highlights why Rhodes cheap season tickets doesn't work in the long term.

I do think Netflix will be around in 2030 though. Keeps on raising billions. Their methods is have cheap subscription and to keep them, attract new subscribers is to buy new content. The new content has price entry levels and what Netflix are doing now is going in big owning good content instead of just buying the content to view. Problem with like any cheap subscription is when you lose or fail to attract new customers. For now though they're a around 20 billion in debt, invest in content and infrastructure. Unlike Rhodes who hired Gary Bowyer(one of the most boring managers ever) and don't invest in infrastructure( thought I would add Bradford in)
Disney, Apple etc are all in debt in this field. I have to wonder why anyone would enter the market.. hmmmm.

Fordy117 · May 8, 2020

With no force majeure like I said there wouldn't be. I doubt Sky will move from their EFL contract. You only need to figure out at this minute that they don't want to be seen as the reason for football not coming back but they have 750m reasons for that. No doubt it will be the daily let's talk about Brighton or West Ham at some point today and something negative.

IFolllow only has the midweek games.

I just don't see how you split the profit 3 ways. Leeds is Sky's EFL golden egg and it looks like they will be losing them to the PL. I just can't see them moving the goalposts.

Storck · May 8, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

Ignore them mate I thought i was interesting and if Bradford City related kind of highlights why Rhodes cheap season tickets doesn't work in the long term.

I do think Netflix will be around in 2030 though. Keeps on raising billions. Their methods is have cheap subscription and to keep them, attract new subscribers is to buy new content. The new content has price entry levels and what Netflix are doing now is going in big owning good content instead of just buying the content to view. Problem with like any cheap subscription is when you lose or fail to attract new customers. For now though they're a around 20 billion in debt, invest in content and infrastructure. Unlike Rhodes who hired Gary Bowyer(one of the most boring managers ever) and don't invest in infrastructure( thought I would add Bradford in)
Disney, Apple etc are all in debt in this field. I have to wonder why anyone would enter the market.. hmmmm.
Click to expand...

If they did you P2P wouldn’t there be a significant upload amount showing on people’s data records to balance the download?

ahar964 · May 8, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

I don't think at this point Netflix do have a long-term plan to recoup. They clearly hoped that being cheap would hook people without hurting the content producers revenue streams so they would still charge peanuts for the rights and then they would be able to corner the market.

If you look at US Broadcast TV as an example.

TV Shows are produced by a production company who are commissioned by a network to make it

The network pays a commissioning fee that is a percentage of the production costs

This fee is covered by the ad income

The production company then cover the rest via the secondary market (Home Media, Syndication, International sales and merchandise)

Now an hour-long show costs on average in the region of $3-4mill an episode. The networks used to pay well over 60% and above of that and for a major hit like Lost they would even often be paying MORE than the production costs.

The problem is one of the areas SVOD services hit was both live viewers which impacted ad revenue but even more so they killed viewing figures for repeats. US networks used to make a 22-24 episode season last all the way from August to May because they could show 2 new episodes then 2 weeks of repeat episodes and not lose too many viewers for the repeats over the new episodes.

Rather than watch a repeat when the network wanted to you watch it you could choose what repeat you wanted to watch on SVOD to a point where it made more sense for Networks to just commission extra shows and show the seasons fairly unbroken (or what often happens now they will have their 22 episode show, will run half unbroken, take it off for the holidays after the holidays stick a different show in that slot which only has a 8-13 episode order so the main show can get ahead with its episodes and the main show will finish the season out when the other show finishes it run) but that doesn't generate more income and means they are actually paying for more new episodes in total so they are willing to pay less as a commissioning fee, even the biggest hits are lucky if the network pays over 50% now.

The production company hence has more costs to cover but Netflix is also impacting the secondary revenue streams. Disc media was on the decline but Digital media was rising at about the same rate as disc media was declining but SVOD increased disc decline and hindered digital rises. Syndication (where a show gets to 60+ episodes and you sell the old episodes to another channel who will show 1 every weekday until they have showed them all before they will loop to the start again, see the US shows on E4 during the day as an example of this) was especially hard hit. Seinfeld for example sold for $3mill an episode and was sold to the 6 largest operators of local affiliates so was making $18mill an episode. When the Big Bang Theory syndication was sold that was bought by the national cable channel TBS for $1.5mill an episode and for Fox for its local affiliates for an extra $500k. And a big part of the difference between making $18mill and $2mill an episode is SVOD's impact on syndication. And its got worse since.

So suddenly Netflix went to renew deals and rather than getting charged peanuts for a package of rights deals for the studios popular shows they were being asked much more for just one of the shows that used to be in the package thus increasing costs. So they had to pay it but the didn't have the brand loyalty to increase prices to cover the new costs so they issued bonds still hoping to have market loyalty before anyone else entered the market hoping by the time they matured they would be able to charge the same kind of prices paid tv was charging. Others entered the market though which made prices to acquire content go up again as now there was bidding wars for content, Hulu ended up paying $2mill an episode a year for Seinfeld having got into a bidding war with Netflix, Netflix paid around the same for The Blacklist having got into a bidding war with Hulu. So Netflix kept having to issue bonds (they have issues between $2bn and $4bn in bonds every year). They tried to make themselves stand out by commissioning originals, these cost more but couldn't just be taken away and were better for marketing but they don't help their cash flow. They also thought they could expand internationally and get the take up they saw in the US but they have struggled (They crow about their international growth but its from 189 countries which makes them much less Impressive) because they just can't get the content, many of these countries had local SVOD appear and while the ABC/CBS/NBC/Fox/CW's in the US aren't paying to acquire us first run rights (or second run rights) for the likes of Doctor Who the likes of BBC, ITV, C4 were paying a lot for US TV content like Lost, 24, House, X-Files etc and Sky were also breaking the bank to acquire such US content as well and Netflix UK's budget couldn't compete.

So all in all Netflix is in a mess, they have more competition than ever, still are surviving on new bond issues every year, the first round of bond issues matures in the next couple of years and they don't have the money to pay them off so will need to take more debt to pay them off. The only way we get to 2030 and Netflix exist still is if someone else buys them but I have a feeling that was actually their exist strategy as they hoped someone like Disney would buy them but Disney choose to buy Fox for both their content and technology and some other streaming tech companies and roll out their own. Most of the other big media companies are also rolling out their own and acquiring smaller studios for their content so I'm not sure where Netflix has to go
Click to expand...

Could you just go through that again for me please

Park bantam · May 8, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

This time is different to any time before. Global recession coming up.

Families will be thinking of themselves.
Click to expand...

Fordy117 said: ↑

With no force majeure like I said there wouldn't be. I doubt Sky will move from their EFL contract. You only need to figure out at this minute that they don't want to be seen as the reason for football not coming back but they have 750m reasons for that. No doubt it will be the daily let's talk about Brighton or West Ham at some point today and something negative.

IFolllow only has the midweek games.

I just don't see how you split the profit 3 ways. Leeds is Sky's EFL golden egg and it looks like they will be losing them to the PL. I just can't see them moving the goalposts.
Click to expand...

City are independently talking about allowing all matches being shown on I follow because of our big fan base until fans can return. Yes there won’t be a massive uptake but enough to help with cash flow. People who buy one should be allowed to keep their seats. Otherwise when normality returns all seats should be freed up

How · May 8, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

I don't think at this point Netflix do have a long-term plan to recoup. They clearly hoped that being cheap would hook people without hurting the content producers revenue streams so they would still charge peanuts for the rights and then they would be able to corner the market.

If you look at US Broadcast TV as an example.

TV Shows are produced by a production company who are commissioned by a network to make it

The network pays a commissioning fee that is a percentage of the production costs

This fee is covered by the ad income

The production company then cover the rest via the secondary market (Home Media, Syndication, International sales and merchandise)

Now an hour-long show costs on average in the region of $3-4mill an episode. The networks used to pay well over 60% and above of that and for a major hit like Lost they would even often be paying MORE than the production costs.

The problem is one of the areas SVOD services hit was both live viewers which impacted ad revenue but even more so they killed viewing figures for repeats. US networks used to make a 22-24 episode season last all the way from August to May because they could show 2 new episodes then 2 weeks of repeat episodes and not lose too many viewers for the repeats over the new episodes.

Rather than watch a repeat when the network wanted to you watch it you could choose what repeat you wanted to watch on SVOD to a point where it made more sense for Networks to just commission extra shows and show the seasons fairly unbroken (or what often happens now they will have their 22 episode show, will run half unbroken, take it off for the holidays after the holidays stick a different show in that slot which only has a 8-13 episode order so the main show can get ahead with its episodes and the main show will finish the season out when the other show finishes it run) but that doesn't generate more income and means they are actually paying for more new episodes in total so they are willing to pay less as a commissioning fee, even the biggest hits are lucky if the network pays over 50% now.

The production company hence has more costs to cover but Netflix is also impacting the secondary revenue streams. Disc media was on the decline but Digital media was rising at about the same rate as disc media was declining but SVOD increased disc decline and hindered digital rises. Syndication (where a show gets to 60+ episodes and you sell the old episodes to another channel who will show 1 every weekday until they have showed them all before they will loop to the start again, see the US shows on E4 during the day as an example of this) was especially hard hit. Seinfeld for example sold for $3mill an episode and was sold to the 6 largest operators of local affiliates so was making $18mill an episode. When the Big Bang Theory syndication was sold that was bought by the national cable channel TBS for $1.5mill an episode and for Fox for its local affiliates for an extra $500k. And a big part of the difference between making $18mill and $2mill an episode is SVOD's impact on syndication. And its got worse since.

So suddenly Netflix went to renew deals and rather than getting charged peanuts for a package of rights deals for the studios popular shows they were being asked much more for just one of the shows that used to be in the package thus increasing costs. So they had to pay it but the didn't have the brand loyalty to increase prices to cover the new costs so they issued bonds still hoping to have market loyalty before anyone else entered the market hoping by the time they matured they would be able to charge the same kind of prices paid tv was charging. Others entered the market though which made prices to acquire content go up again as now there was bidding wars for content, Hulu ended up paying $2mill an episode a year for Seinfeld having got into a bidding war with Netflix, Netflix paid around the same for The Blacklist having got into a bidding war with Hulu. So Netflix kept having to issue bonds (they have issues between $2bn and $4bn in bonds every year). They tried to make themselves stand out by commissioning originals, these cost more but couldn't just be taken away and were better for marketing but they don't help their cash flow. They also thought they could expand internationally and get the take up they saw in the US but they have struggled (They crow about their international growth but its from 189 countries which makes them much less Impressive) because they just can't get the content, many of these countries had local SVOD appear and while the ABC/CBS/NBC/Fox/CW's in the US aren't paying to acquire us first run rights (or second run rights) for the likes of Doctor Who the likes of BBC, ITV, C4 were paying a lot for US TV content like Lost, 24, House, X-Files etc and Sky were also breaking the bank to acquire such US content as well and Netflix UK's budget couldn't compete.

So all in all Netflix is in a mess, they have more competition than ever, still are surviving on new bond issues every year, the first round of bond issues matures in the next couple of years and they don't have the money to pay them off so will need to take more debt to pay them off. The only way we get to 2030 and Netflix exist still is if someone else buys them but I have a feeling that was actually their exist strategy as they hoped someone like Disney would buy them but Disney choose to buy Fox for both their content and technology and some other streaming tech companies and roll out their own. Most of the other big media companies are also rolling out their own and acquiring smaller studios for their content so I'm not sure where Netflix has to go
Click to expand...

So, would you donate?

Fordy117 · May 8, 2020

Park bantam said: ↑

City are independently talking about allowing all matches being shown on I follow because of our big fan base until fans can return. Yes there won’t be a massive uptake but enough to help with cash flow. People who buy one should be allowed to keep their seats. Otherwise when normality returns all seats should be freed up
Click to expand...

City can talk to IFollow as much as they want but its Sky that holds the weekend contract.

IFollow have little to do with anything really.

Storck · May 8, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

City can talk to IFollow as much as they want but its Sky that holds the weekend contract.

IFollow have little to do with anything really.
Click to expand...

They do because if they don’t have the capacity to cope then there is no point in even approaching Sky.

I think we will see if Sky are going to be flexible by their approach to the restart of the PL.

SimonW · May 8, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

Ignore them mate I thought i was interesting and if Bradford City related kind of highlights why Rhodes cheap season tickets doesn't work in the long term.

I do think Netflix will be around in 2030 though. Keeps on raising billions. Their methods is have cheap subscription and to keep them, attract new subscribers is to buy new content. The new content has price entry levels and what Netflix are doing now is going in big owning good content instead of just buying the content to view. Problem with like any cheap subscription is when you lose or fail to attract new customers. For now though they're a around 20 billion in debt, invest in content and infrastructure. Unlike Rhodes who hired Gary Bowyer(one of the most boring managers ever) and don't invest in infrastructure( thought I would add Bradford in)
Disney, Apple etc are all in debt in this field. I have to wonder why anyone would enter the market.. hmmmm.
Click to expand...

The thing is they don’t actually 'own' their own originals as they don’t actually have a production arm of the company. They still only licence the content from production companies which means yearly licence fees. The only difference now is the early originals a Netflix were paying most of the production costs to commission the originals where they got the first run rights in any region they had launched in (which lasted a year) and then the right to renew the SVOD rights each year. Studios held the other rights, they could sell international rights in regions Netflix weren’t in after 2 months of the content being launched (if Netflix launched in that country in that window they kept the rights) and could sell Home media and to non-SVOD outlets (basically standard VOD services or proper tv channels) after 18 months. Now Netflix licence a full rights package so they pay to fully control it, the problem is most of those rights they can’t really exploit as it undermines their main service, it’s only really the merchandising rights they can really exploit.

This full rights packages though are much more expensive, They are paying more than the production costs to commission shows now and the yearly renewals make even the cheapest originals more expensive than the non-original content. And people consume more of the non-originals by a fair amount than originals. It’s why when they release viewer metrics they count watching 5 mins of an episode so they can inflate their originals view numbers. It's why most of their originals now get cancelled after a single season. They could pay more for the non-originals, spend less and get more actual views, it is just harder to market when it’s content that has to be renewed each year rather than the originals where the deal autorenews unless Netflix activate the break clause

Dennis · May 8, 2020

Bronco said: ↑

I'm replying to a comment made to me, I've watched away games I could not get to them, so I agree with you @TallinnBantam.
Click to expand...

If you've watched City's away games on iFollow in the UK then you have been watching illegal streaming of the games. Of course that's along with many, many others! You may have done this unwittingly but iFollow does not have the legal right to broadcast footie in the UK. Only Sky and BT are legally allowed to do that. iFollow can only be streamed legally elsewhere in Europe and around the world and streaming of iFollow broadcasts is illegal in the UK.

Storck · May 8, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

If you've watched City's away games on iFollow in the UK then you have been watching illegal streaming of the games. Of course that's along with many, many others! You may have done this unwittingly but iFollow does not have the legal right to broadcast footie in the UK. Only Sky and BT are legally allowed to do that. iFollow can only be streamed legally elsewhere in Europe and around the world and streaming of iFollow broadcasts is illegal in the UK.
Click to expand...

Depending on which matches it was. If it was midweek then iFollow have shown them

Dennis · May 8, 2020

Storck said: ↑

Depending on which matches it was. If it was midweek then iFollow have shown them
Click to expand...

Yes, I should have made it clear that it applies only to weekend broadcasts and doesn't conflict with Sky's and BT's broadcasting rights of particular EFL games.

How · May 8, 2020

Storck said: ↑

Depending on which matches it was. If it was midweek then iFollow have shown them
Click to expand...

Or international weekend Saturdays they are allowed too when only league one and league two are playing

How · May 8, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

Yes, I should have made it clear that it applies only to weekend broadcasts and doesn't conflict with Sky's and BT's broadcasting rights of particular EFL games.
Click to expand...

They can show the games on a weekend when it’s internationals as per contract signed in summer of 2018 I think

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Would you donate?

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