Most liked posts in thread: Would you donate?

Bronco · May 7, 2020

Good question and it takes me back to the night a fans meeting was called at St Goerges Hall and basically we we're told the club needed help financially or we may not have a football club, again in the 80s when Bob Martin called the receivers in and Stafford & Jack Tordoff called a rally round to fans one Sunday morning about taking over and asking fans to contribute.
I did contribute on both occasions and even though we have moved on and a multi millionaire now owns our club I would personally help out than see my club go under.

Reading Julians statement I'm not sure that's what he's implying, but as many have said before if Stefan hasn't a stomach for the fight put the club up for sale, I'd think there would be interest if it was offered at a realistic price.

Storck · May 7, 2020

BingleyBantam said: ↑

How come the owner of the club “loans” the club money, but fans are expected to give a gift. Any fund raising needs to be in the return of shares in the club. Sick of any progress made, being used to pay off owner ‘loans’ instead of reinvested in the club’s infrastructure.
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As far as I can see there isn't any expectation from the club, Julian talks about fans buying things not gifting money

Hoochy-Min · May 7, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

Streaming services piracy figures (not to mention the massive market for stolen logins) suggests no matter the price a large percentage wouldn’t pay anything. It’s one of the problems that the internet, its caused a certain amount of self entitlement where large amount of people think they deserve things for free
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One thing I dislike about sport tv subscriptions is that you pay a premium for it as a bonus channel and they then have the cheek to have ad breaks. So they're getting your cash and then getting paid by advertisers too. Subscriptions should be a thing of the past now with the way they can personalise adverts for every customer.

Hoochy-Min · May 7, 2020

Bronco said: ↑

Yes you have to feel for poor old Rupert Murdoch down to his last 15.9 billion USD.
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Not just him though, like Rogered said you have to have BT Sport, Sky, Amazon all on a separate sub. No wonder folk like me get it all in for 50 quid a year. I used to pay SKY for sports but when they lost the Champions League and the Spanish football etc I turned it in.

Hoochy-Min · May 7, 2020

Storck said: ↑

£50..... I know a man who will do you 2 for £40
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Happy with what I get. All the sports, PPV live events if I want. Films, tv series all on there. Not had a serious issue in a couple of years and no messing about downloading this and that.

Hoochy-Min · May 7, 2020

Rogered Tart said: ↑

Can you get filth on it? Asking for a friend.
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You can. Proper filth. See it going in and everything.

ahar964 · May 8, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

I don't think at this point Netflix do have a long-term plan to recoup. They clearly hoped that being cheap would hook people without hurting the content producers revenue streams so they would still charge peanuts for the rights and then they would be able to corner the market.

If you look at US Broadcast TV as an example.

TV Shows are produced by a production company who are commissioned by a network to make it

The network pays a commissioning fee that is a percentage of the production costs

This fee is covered by the ad income

The production company then cover the rest via the secondary market (Home Media, Syndication, International sales and merchandise)

Now an hour-long show costs on average in the region of $3-4mill an episode. The networks used to pay well over 60% and above of that and for a major hit like Lost they would even often be paying MORE than the production costs.

The problem is one of the areas SVOD services hit was both live viewers which impacted ad revenue but even more so they killed viewing figures for repeats. US networks used to make a 22-24 episode season last all the way from August to May because they could show 2 new episodes then 2 weeks of repeat episodes and not lose too many viewers for the repeats over the new episodes.

Rather than watch a repeat when the network wanted to you watch it you could choose what repeat you wanted to watch on SVOD to a point where it made more sense for Networks to just commission extra shows and show the seasons fairly unbroken (or what often happens now they will have their 22 episode show, will run half unbroken, take it off for the holidays after the holidays stick a different show in that slot which only has a 8-13 episode order so the main show can get ahead with its episodes and the main show will finish the season out when the other show finishes it run) but that doesn't generate more income and means they are actually paying for more new episodes in total so they are willing to pay less as a commissioning fee, even the biggest hits are lucky if the network pays over 50% now.

The production company hence has more costs to cover but Netflix is also impacting the secondary revenue streams. Disc media was on the decline but Digital media was rising at about the same rate as disc media was declining but SVOD increased disc decline and hindered digital rises. Syndication (where a show gets to 60+ episodes and you sell the old episodes to another channel who will show 1 every weekday until they have showed them all before they will loop to the start again, see the US shows on E4 during the day as an example of this) was especially hard hit. Seinfeld for example sold for $3mill an episode and was sold to the 6 largest operators of local affiliates so was making $18mill an episode. When the Big Bang Theory syndication was sold that was bought by the national cable channel TBS for $1.5mill an episode and for Fox for its local affiliates for an extra $500k. And a big part of the difference between making $18mill and $2mill an episode is SVOD's impact on syndication. And its got worse since.

So suddenly Netflix went to renew deals and rather than getting charged peanuts for a package of rights deals for the studios popular shows they were being asked much more for just one of the shows that used to be in the package thus increasing costs. So they had to pay it but the didn't have the brand loyalty to increase prices to cover the new costs so they issued bonds still hoping to have market loyalty before anyone else entered the market hoping by the time they matured they would be able to charge the same kind of prices paid tv was charging. Others entered the market though which made prices to acquire content go up again as now there was bidding wars for content, Hulu ended up paying $2mill an episode a year for Seinfeld having got into a bidding war with Netflix, Netflix paid around the same for The Blacklist having got into a bidding war with Hulu. So Netflix kept having to issue bonds (they have issues between $2bn and $4bn in bonds every year). They tried to make themselves stand out by commissioning originals, these cost more but couldn't just be taken away and were better for marketing but they don't help their cash flow. They also thought they could expand internationally and get the take up they saw in the US but they have struggled (They crow about their international growth but its from 189 countries which makes them much less Impressive) because they just can't get the content, many of these countries had local SVOD appear and while the ABC/CBS/NBC/Fox/CW's in the US aren't paying to acquire us first run rights (or second run rights) for the likes of Doctor Who the likes of BBC, ITV, C4 were paying a lot for US TV content like Lost, 24, House, X-Files etc and Sky were also breaking the bank to acquire such US content as well and Netflix UK's budget couldn't compete.

So all in all Netflix is in a mess, they have more competition than ever, still are surviving on new bond issues every year, the first round of bond issues matures in the next couple of years and they don't have the money to pay them off so will need to take more debt to pay them off. The only way we get to 2030 and Netflix exist still is if someone else buys them but I have a feeling that was actually their exist strategy as they hoped someone like Disney would buy them but Disney choose to buy Fox for both their content and technology and some other streaming tech companies and roll out their own. Most of the other big media companies are also rolling out their own and acquiring smaller studios for their content so I'm not sure where Netflix has to go
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Could you just go through that again for me please

Fordy117 · May 8, 2020

MallorcaBantam said: ↑

GETAFE has vowed to renew all season tickets for free for next season, following the COVID-19 crisis.

The club’s President, Angel Torres confirmed that he would front the cost of renewing the 13,500 season tickets for next season.

The Madrid club has come to this decision in order to support its fans who have been struggling financially due to the pandemic.
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Loving that! Well done to them.

Here are talk about helping a man that is loaning the club money. Madness!

Angel Torres massive credit to him.

Rogered Tart · May 9, 2020

Norman Corner said: ↑

I wouldn't 'give' the club any money or contribute to a 'save the club fund' but I would invest. Issue a new batch of shares and I would seriously consider investing. Yes it dilutes the current owners shareholding but it is common practice as a way to raise funds.

Bradford City are a business. Raise money in the market through loans or issues new shares but they are not getting my money for free.
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I agree Norm, when there is a major shareholder involved like Rupp is then i wouldn't contribute anything without it having a value in return no matter how low.

Rogered Tart · May 9, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

I suspect the experience of your parents' neighbour isn't that unusual. I bought shares in City when BFG was trying to raise extra money on top of all of the loans, leasing deals etc which the club had already negotiated. There were several hundred other fans who also did the same. We even received a dividend from the shares (as of course did the Richmond and Rhodes families) which imo was too good to be true and too high to be sustainable. I ran into GR (we lived quite close to him at the time) and I said what I believed. He told me I was wrong (in less polite terms). Three years later we were in Administration and the shareholders lost their 'investment'.

I don't believe fan ownership is a workable solution. There aren't many such arrangements around the world. Even in Germany where people believe there is more fan ownership of clubs, it isn't really true. Yes, most Bundesliga clubs have a club membership scheme which gives the fans some control over the direction of the club but they aren't shareholders in our terms. Ownership outside of Bundesliga 1 still resides with family groups, local banks and major sponsors.
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The chaos of the likes of myself thinking they somehow have a say in the club whilst holding a handful of shares would be inevitable. One thing this virus has highlighted if Bury wasn't a clear enough marker is that the finances of fooball as a sport are out of control. A system of serious financial regulation is a must but would never be allowed by the behemoth that is the premier league. How can a sport ever hope to be run along financial business lines when you have likes of Reading spending over £200 for every £100 brought in to the club and with no way of ever bringing those figures down without the dream of promotion?
Football needs to have massive change behind the scenes.

Dennis · May 9, 2020

Rogered Tart said: ↑

The chaos of the likes of myself thinking they somehow have a say in the club whilst holding a handful of shares would be inevitable. One thing this virus has highlighted if Bury wasn't a clear enough marker is that the finances of fooball as a sport are out of control. A system of serious financial regulation is a must but would never be allowed by the behemoth that is the premier league. How can a sport ever hope to be run along financial business lines when you have likes of Reading spending over £200 for every £100 brought in to the club and with no way of ever bringing those figures down without the dream of promotion?
Football needs to have massive change behind the scenes.
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Football finances are definitely out of control. The TV broadcasters have created a very unstable system which continues to rely on them funding the major clubs. The current crisis has demonstrated to all that that regime cannot deal with such emergencies even for very wealthy clubs.

And as for the rest of us? The Championship is underpinned either by parachute payments for a privileged few or the egoes and bank balances of some seriously wealthy individuals, increasingly foreign based who are willing to dig deep for a chance to join the big boys with even bigger egoes in the PL. Meanwhile at our level, it's a hand to mouth existence with many having to rely on their owners for their financial survival (I don't include us in that other than through this current crisis). It's fecking financial madness and I wouldn't be surprised to see the bubble burst without a major shake-up once the current medical crisis is over.

EDIT - ps A quick look at Deloittes for last season shows that in addition to Man U, Man C, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal etc, the likes of Wolves, Palace, West Ham were all in the top 30 of highest earning clubs in Europe! That illustrates to well the impact of Sky etc on our domestic regime.

Dennis · May 9, 2020

WilsdenBantam said: ↑

Rhodes in his statement talks about the club becoming self sustaining, this to me suggests Rupp is unlikely to put money into the club other than for it to tread water and survive which makes part fan ownership more realistic. It’s a far better way of raising funds to keep a club going imo than asking for ‘save our club donations’.
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That has been the Rhodes' view of how to run a football club for about 15 years. A club has to be sustainable on a day today basis and has to rely on windfalls - cup runs, player sales, sell-on fees - to allow the club to develop further. There isn't a lot of planning and vision for the future required with that kind of outlook. That's one of the reasons why they sold out to R&R. In the Championship the Rhodes philosophy is simply unworkable and JR and ML knew that they didn't have the resources to even consolidate at that level. There are too many wealthy Championship owners who are willing to use their own money to have a chance of joining the big boys in the PL.

I am still unconvinced that in the current regime, fan ownership however appealing it might appear has no serious part to play. But then I don't expect a professional club to rely upon donations to keep it going either. If we have a short term cash flow problem, I'd expect the owner(s) to be covering that.

bantam2708 · May 9, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

Rhodes is out of his depth running a football club. His methods are out dated and don't work. He lives day to day without any vision. 14k fans and doesn't do anything with them. He doesn't even know from them 14k what wealth groups they're in. No segmentation research done of anything.

Going forward he needs to go... we need to operate with long term vision.
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Rhodes is a firefighter. Good for the situation we found ourselves in post Edin and probably good for the situation today, because cost cutting is his best asset. But going forward, we absolutely need someone with a vision and direction. And to be fair I think he knows this too as I'm sure Ryan Sparks said he was looking for his replacement and came close to getting him.

Rogered Tart · May 9, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

The problem is that as the PL changing the transfer window showed that Football is a global business and unless everyone introduces the same regulation then it actually has a negative impact. Infact just look at women’s football, there is the wage cap in England and there is a talent drain because of that. Man Utd women lost their captain Alex Greenwood to Lyon this season for example and part of that is because Lyon can offer more in wages than English clubs can. So if we saw all levels of English football put in wage caps you would see players choosing to go abroad where not only the big nations could offer more but most likely the smaller nations. English football is then going to generate less income as it’s a less desirable product thus hitting the clubs financially. It really would need FIFA to implement something but a wage cap is complex as a current League 2 weekly wage is a year or more wage in some countries
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Our problem lies with the fact we effectively have a 20 team league and separate 72 team league that the 20 team league cares nothing about. This happened slowly but surely since the introduction of the Premier league in 1993. It doesn't bother the Premier league clu s nor does it affect them. They'll play out their season as they sit fit. The rest of the football league pyramid will have to pick up the pieces.

fredm · May 11, 2020

Storck said: ↑

If they were never going to play for the club though would they need to be registered?
An alternative would be to own a club in the EU
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Isn't this what certain clubs in the PL are doing now? Owning other clubs all over the world not just in Europe.

Bantamsteve · May 7, 2020

How said: ↑

I think from the statements and the lack of incoming football for city, the next step will be asking for donations from fans. A survival fund no doubt, again.

question is, would you donate?

It’s a no for me unless we had some kind of guarantee of it meaning something. Either further down the line with a guaranteed season ticket when fans can come back etc. Rupp is certainly worth enough to prop us up in the short term until this has cleared.
I can see it now we will have the target in the t&a to “save our club”. Feels like Groundhog Day.
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Certainly does feel a bit like "Groundhog Day"
Am with you it's a definite no from me too been there done that when we didn't have a chairman as wealthy as we have today
it's a shame but times have changed and with the wealth he has we shouldn't need to
ask yourself if any other of his businesses will rely on donations I bet the answer is no
To coin one of Fordys phrases "We are not a charity " !!!!!

Storck · May 7, 2020

Have I missed the club asking?

reading Julian’s statement it talks about hoping people buy whatever they can put on sale

Dennis · May 7, 2020

bantam2708 said: ↑

Wouldn't it be £100 for 15k fans to reach £1.5m rather than £1000?
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Yes. Oops!

SimonW · May 7, 2020

Storck said: ↑

Yep it is but then there is the on going funding. Currently the owner has lent the club about £2m. If needed again would the fan owners be willing to stump up thier 25% so £500k?
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Yeah that's the thing, you can't have a 'supporters trust' owning part of a club and still expect the owner to keep pumping money in to keep the clubs going unless the supporter's trust put in an equivalent share everytime a cash injection is needed. Club's would probably find that while it solves things short term it pushes them closer to having to fold than other solutions.

Maybe something like a supporters bond would be better for clubs, then everyone lending would get an interest payment every year and would be due their money back at the end of the bonds term (say anywhere from, 10-25 years) but the club would know it needs to be putting some cash aside for paying this back so could budget for that

Keefly Bantam · May 7, 2020

Tony Wilkinson said: ↑

Or..........how about putting on a football match...?
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A charity match perhaps? BT V TCA?

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