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Fordy117 · May 9, 2020

JonButterfield said: ↑

The outlook changes day by day, let alone week by week.

Absolutely no possible way to predict where we'll be in August.
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No it doesn't change every day at all.

Ricky Parry had said next season might not happen.

The government keep lying and then you have Scotland & Wales leaders mouthing off. Boris really needs to shut them up.

Tomorrow will be an ease of the lockdown because of the pressure from Scotland, Wales. but as I am in the Merc in Leeds let me tell you that's pointless - might as well open the country back up now!

Millions will lose their job and at this moment div 1 & 2 won't be able to continue next season. Football is a business and businesses have suffered but some haven't started moaning after 1 week or so.

No vaccine- no mass gatherings- this is going on for at least 12 months. Next season not happening and if the PL doesn't restart this season it certainly wont.

Why for example would JCT600 want to sponsor us? Why? Better off shutting the gates for 12 months... next season is a non starter!

JonButterfield · May 9, 2020

Fordy117 said: ↑

No it doesn't change every day at all.

Ricky Parry had said next season might not happen.

The government keep lying and then you have Scotland & Wales leaders mouthing off. Boris really needs to shut them up.

Tomorrow will be an ease of the lockdown because of the pressure from Scotland, Wales. but as I am in the Merc in Leeds let me tell you that's pointless - might as well open the country back up now!

Millions will lose their job and at this moment div 1 & 2 won't be able to continue next season. Football is a business and businesses have suffered but some haven't started moaning after 1 week or so.

No vaccine- no mass gatherings- this is going on for at least 12 months. Next season not happening and if the PL doesn't restart this season it certainly wont.

Why for example would JCT600 want to sponsor us? Why? Better off shutting the gates for 12 months... next season is a non starter!
Click to expand...

It does keep changing every day.

We just had an example of it changing from one day to the next with Trump's coronavirus task force - disbanded Wednesday, reinstated indefinitely on Thursday - all because someone close to Trump got the virus.

The figures are changing daily, although the graph is on a stable decline recently - but that could change too, hence the government potentially putting in a 14 day quarantine for those flying in to the country - something they probably should have STARTED with, not waiting until now for.

But that move to quarantine outsiders shows the government feel the stable decline will continue to be a decline. So by August, there would be every chance of the football league going ahead behind closed doors. IMHO, that remains the most likely outcome.

SimonW · May 9, 2020

WilsdenBantam said: ↑

I’m not 100% sure on how fan ownership or part ownership works. However I’d be surprised if it works like that. Wimbledon and Portsmouth have both had it, I’d be shocked if every fan who donated for shares had to help pay the bills, most except for maybe the major share holders would be ceremonial and wouldn’t have to give an equivalent amount. I have shares in companies and don’t pay towards the running of them so why would fans at a football club? Also in Germany I believe clubs are part fan owned, do everyone of them? These are genuine questions as I don’t know, but I’d be shocked if some bloke from Buttershaw bought £500 worth of shares and was expected to contribute to things like players wages and other bills.
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You don’t have to help with the costs of the companies you own shares in because it comes out of the companies earnings. The problem with City is it makes a loss and Rupp is supposedly having to invest millions to keep it afloat, if the companies you own shares in had to have a owner bail out it would be expected that all shareholders make a contribution equal to their holding. Either that or it would involve a debt for equity swap which would dilute the other shareholders stake and actually devalue your investment.

As for Germany it’s a little different. It’s part of law that 'community assets' have to have a community ownership element to them. However I believe that is actually more like a golden share setup. The communities share has no monetary value, its held by an independent entity and it can’t be bought or sold and isn’t entitled to receive any dividends or proceeds of a sale. All the holding gives them is voting rights on certain issues that have a community impact (for example if Newcastle had that setup they could block the Saudi bid)

Fordy117 · May 9, 2020

JonButterfield said: ↑

The outlook changes day by day, let alone week by week.

Absolutely no possible way to predict where we'll be in August.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't change every day at all.

Ricky Parry had said next season might not happen.

The government keep lying and then you have Scotland & Wales leaders mouthing off. Boris really needs to shut them up.

Tomorrow will be an ease of the lockdown because of the pressure from Scotland, Wales. but as I am in the Merc in Leeds let me tell you that's pointless - might as well open the country back up now!

Millions will lose their job and at this moment div 1 & 2 won't be able to continue next season. Football is a business and businesses have suffered but some haven't started moaning after 1 week or so.

No vaccine- no mass gatherings- this is going on for at least 12 months. Next season not happening and if the PL doesn't restart this season it certainly wont.

Why for example would JCT600 want to sponsor us? Why? Better off shutting the gates for 12 months... next season is a non starter!

JonButterfield said: ↑

It does keep changing every day.

We just had an example of it changing from one day to the next with Trump's coronavirus task force - disbanded Wednesday, reinstated indefinitely on Thursday - all because someone close to Trump got the virus.

The figures are changing daily, although the graph is on a stable decline recently - but that could change too, hence the government potentially putting in a 14 day quarantine for those flying in to the country - something they probably should have STARTED with, not waiting until now for.

But that move to quarantine outsiders shows the government feel the stable decline will continue to be a decline. So by August, there would be every chance of the football league going ahead behind closed doors. IMHO, that remains the most likely outcome.
Click to expand...

Mate, me and others were complaining the borders were still open back in March. People stay coming into the UK and not tested! Utter JOKE! Meanwhile in Australia, New Zealand and Korea the borders were shut! 2 week quarantine is something places like the West Indies were doing last month!

Do be looking and praising! We are way behind! We follow the science is just an excuses for we haven't got a clue what we are doing.

Football won't come back next season in EFL 1 & 2.. how? Please explain how it will? Testing? Costs, Neutral venues? - what's going to change?

Rick Parry didn't warn us for the laugh.. he warned us because it's realistic.

SimonW · May 9, 2020

TRB101 said: ↑

Why? Supporters own, say, 10% of club. New shares issued and supporters don't buy any. Supporters then own, say, 8% of club.
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Sure you can do a debt for equity swap and devalue the fans shareholding but then fans may as well have just donated the money. What’s the point in having shares If they are diluted so much that I’m 5 years they are basically worthless? Especially when the process of issuing shares and then diluting shares has a cost tomitn

Bigrod · May 9, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

I suspect the experience of your parents' neighbour isn't that unusual. I bought shares in City when BFG was trying to raise extra money on top of all of the loans, leasing deals etc which the club had already negotiated. There were several hundred other fans who also did the same. We even received a dividend from the shares (as of course did the Richmond and Rhodes families) which imo was too good to be true and too high to be sustainable. I ran into GR (we lived quite close to him at the time) and I said what I believed. He told me I was wrong (in less polite terms). Three years later we were in Administration and the shareholders lost their 'investment'.

I don't believe fan ownership is a workable solution. There aren't many such arrangements around the world. Even in Germany where people believe there is more fan ownership of clubs, it isn't really true. Yes, most Bundesliga clubs have a club membership scheme which gives the fans some control over the direction of the club but they aren't shareholders in our terms. Ownership outside of Bundesliga 1 still resides with family groups, local banks and major sponsors.
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When the share issue was raised back in the very late 90’s (following promotion to the Premiership if my memory is correct’), I had a young family and didn’t have much spare cash. My situation is different now and I could buy shares in the club. However as you rightly point out, that has been problematic in the past. I wouldn’t be prepared to invest a modest amount unless there was a mechanism which meant my investment was underwritten. A bit like Premium Bonds, whereby you can sell and recover the value you invested, but accept that inflation will have reduced the real value.

SimonW · May 9, 2020

Faithful Bantam said: ↑

I’m probably missing something here, and I understand the financial implications for next season could be serious. But for the last 2-3 months, I just don’t see how we’ve taken a financial hit? OK, we’ve lost a bit of gate receipt revenue, but most of our gates are comprised of ST holders anyway aren’t they? So revenue won’t be down by much. And we’ve reduced our operating costs by furloughing the team and our employees. How many players do we have? 30? At £2,500 a month for each, That’s £75K per month we’re saving. Add in the other employees we have, and it’d be around £100K a month we’re saving? That’s equivalent to around 5,000 paying fans at £20 a pop. I’d be surprised if we actually had that many in a month. Am I missing something?

And if we qualify for the furlough scheme then presumably we qualify for other government loan schemes too? So the fans shouldn’t have to be ‘donating’ anything.
Click to expand...

You haven’t cut the wages of any of the staff. You have taken the government's money but are making up the difference. It’s certainly saving some money but the playing staff are all basically making more than £2500 a month and the wages managers and coaches are getting even at your level is more than the £2500 a month. And many of the other costs that a football club has still exist. It’s also not just ticket sales you miss out on but all the match day income which is just as vital.

There may also be bonus due to be paid if the season is ended. For example they may work out what percentage of games each player had played and then apply that percentage to the remaining games and pay appearance fees based on that. I know that’s something the players and clubs at PL level are in discussions about and with it being more pressing lower down I suspect it’s happening at all clubs

SimonW · May 9, 2020

Faithful Bantam said: ↑

We’d save on the costs associated with putting games on too. And travelling to games.

Next season would be more problematic, I agree.
Click to expand...

Not that much actually. Most of the costs are the same if there is no-one in the ground or 80k. It’s one of the reasons why youth sides and women’s sides don’t play at the clubs main stadium. The find a smaller venue that’s cheaper to put an event on at. It’s perhaps the biggest issue for you being basically the 'biggest' team in the league, you have a bigger stadium which is more expensive to host a match at than a smaller ground would be

SimonW · May 9, 2020

Rogered Tart said: ↑

Our problem lies with the fact we effectively have a 20 team league and separate 72 team league that the 20 team league cares nothing about. This happened slowly but surely since the introduction of the Premier league in 1993. It doesn't bother the Premier league clu s nor does it affect them. They'll play out their season as they sit fit. The rest of the football league pyramid will have to pick up the pieces.
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The thing is though the PL already gives the EFL way more than he EFL gives back. It used to be the case that the EFL clubs provided a steady stream of players for the top level but that reduces year on year. And they don’t even provide an environment for loan played to grow. The average foreign club below top tier plays in a style much more fitting to PL football than EFL clubs generally do, have more modern training setups (infrastructure and techniques) and are much more willing to enter into mutual agreements. Even before this the EFL was happy taking money but seem to want hand outs rather than being a mutual benefit to English football

Rogered Tart · May 9, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

The thing is though the PL already gives the EFL way more than he EFL gives back. It used to be the case that the EFL clubs provided a steady stream of players for the top level but that reduces year on year. And they don’t even provide an environment for loan played to grow. The average foreign club below top tier plays in a style much more fitting to PL football than EFL clubs generally do, have more modern training setups (infrastructure and techniques) and are much more willing to enter into mutual agreements. Even before this the EFL was happy taking money but seem to want hand outs rather than being a mutual benefit to English football
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How can the EFL afford to give back more than it recieves? The global draw of the premier league and the TV rights paid for this have lead to what is a ludicrous difference in revenue. Take Leeds for example, finish top of the championship and they recieve what i think is £3 million, Norwich the team directly above them in the ladder stand to recieve over £100 million for abject failure and finishing bottom. Thats not to say its wrong, but it does create the unlevel playing field we have now.

Rogered Tart · May 9, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

Giving back doesn’t have to be done with money. As I said EFL clubs are largely so backwards in their infrastructure and techniques and are so hesitant to change that they don’t produce players capable of playing at higher levels and also damage players sent to them on loan.

Its easy to sit there and accuse PL of being selfish but each level is just as selfish in their own way. They all pull in a different direction rather than finding common ground where everyone benefits
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Its nigh on impossible to develop your own players in this country these day with the conditions laid down by the Premeirship. Its alright saying the EFL took the money to allow changes to happen but in truth they had no choice, it allows the premiership academies to hoover up all the young talent for as little outlay as possible. Clubs like Brentford do buck the trend but they don't even have an academy because they realised they were losing money doing it.

Rogered Tart · May 9, 2020

Mike Hunt said: ↑

Without the EFL the PL is nothing. Only a myopic idiot can’t see that.
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I'm not sure agree with that these days Mike. Financial wise the Premiership could stand alone without being affected by the loss of the EFL, in fact i think they would welcome the scenario. It would probably see the end of cup competitions but would allow the the premiership to concentrate on expanding global competitions like the champions league and the Europa league. Not saying i agree with it but the EFL has been so badly run over the years its done itself a lot of damage.

Faithful Bantam · May 10, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

You haven’t cut the wages of any of the staff. You have taken the government's money but are making up the difference. It’s certainly saving some money but the playing staff are all basically making more than £2500 a month and the wages managers and coaches are getting even at your level is more than the £2500 a month. And many of the other costs that a football club has still exist. It’s also not just ticket sales you miss out on but all the match day income which is just as vital.

There may also be bonus due to be paid if the season is ended. For example they may work out what percentage of games each player had played and then apply that percentage to the remaining games and pay appearance fees based on that. I know that’s something the players and clubs at PL level are in discussions about and with it being more pressing lower down I suspect it’s happening at all clubs
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That's factored into the numbers though. Our operating costs have been funded by the govt to the tune of 100k. And I'm happy to be proven wrong but I doubt our match day income is huge. The catering is provided by a 3rd party. Match day bonuses will presumably not be paid and whilst some costs will remain fixed, we'll save on the additional costs of putting games on. Utility costs, pitch maintenance will have been scaled back even further than it has, rewarding etc.

Storck · May 10, 2020

Faithful Bantam said: ↑

That's factored into the numbers though. Our operating costs have been funded by the govt to the tune of 100k. And I'm happy to be proven wrong but I doubt our match day income is huge. The catering is provided by a 3rd party. Match day bonuses will presumably not be paid and whilst some costs will remain fixed, we'll save on the additional costs of putting games on. Utility costs, pitch maintenance will have been scaled back even further than it has, rewarding etc.
Click to expand...

One question of the 3rd party contracts would be do they pay per match or per month? If per match then that would disappear and it had been previous ly said that the 3rd party deals covered the rent so if that isn’t coming in that is an extra cost to cover

How · May 10, 2020

SimonW said: ↑

But they do nothing to help themselves. Take more of a modern approach to tactics, training, facilities and guess what these players hovered up by PL academies might very well find themselves being sent back on loan as they are seen as places where such players can actually grow not somewhere that sets them back 6-12months. Loan managers at clubs are wary about sending players to clubs with managers who are seen as stuck in the past, where training techniques are antiquated and where the chairman is likely to chop and change any manager who tries to be progressive and replace him with a dinosaur who is likely to freeze a more technical player out for a 2-dimensional player.

It's kind of like you giving someone pleading poverty £10,000 only for them to then go and blow that money on hookers, booze and blow
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Very blinkered view of it and not even sure you’ve watched many games outside of the top 6 judging by your posts.
Are you sure clubs have chose not to send them to lower league clubs because they now want full wages for the prospects now and these clubs can’t afford it? Or is it that they are dinosaurs and tactics are from 1963 as you seem to think? I’d go for the first answer.

There are a lot of dinosaur managers and tactics in the premier league. There is currently a pe teacher in charge of Man U and you slate the whole pyramid?

Storck · May 10, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

We'll all see whether the PL has to change its ways once the Brexit transition period has ended. After that, PL clubs won't be able to hoover up potential youngsters at European clubs since latest thinking suggests the UK will only grant work permits to EU players on the same basis currently as non-EU players. And that means in practice that the players allowed in have to be established players at the international level. Maybe then the PL will understand again the importance of the EFL pyramid as a potential source of future talent?
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Alternatively they will buy the players and then loan them out to EU teams

Dennis · May 10, 2020

Bigrod said: ↑

The same is true in Scotland, where the situation is, if anything, more extreme with Rangers and Celtic hoovering up virtually all the promising Scottish youth. I understand that often the kids are then not allowed to play for their school or a local club, which seems pretty poor to me.
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Most PL clubs (and some Championship ones) apply the same rule about not playing for school teams and the like. My friend's grandson is on the academy books at a certain club in Manchester (who don't wear red) and as part of the arrangement has a scholarship place at a boarding school in the area. He can't play for the school football team nor the rugby team.

Bigrod · May 10, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

Most PL clubs (and some Championship ones) apply the same rule about not playing for school teams and the like. My friend's grandson is on the academy books at a certain club in Manchester (who don't wear red) and as part of the arrangement has a scholarship place at a boarding school in the area. He can't play for the school football team nor the rugby team.
Click to expand...

My nephew did the Scottish route. Exactly the same. It creates a divide. He ‘didn’t make the cut’ and has become very disillusioned with the game. Apart from a little 5 a side with close friends, he doesn’t play, nor does he go to watch football.
I think the fact that Scotland has fallen so far as a footballing nation, may in part be due to the dominance of the big two and their youth/academy policy.

Storck · May 10, 2020

Dennis said: ↑

Maybe. The FA has previously said that players cannot be registered with a PL or EFL club without a valid HO work permit. And the player can't get a work permit without the FA confirming that the player meets their criteria of being an established international player.
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If they were never going to play for the club though would they need to be registered?
An alternative would be to own a club in the EU

ConnecticutBantam · May 15, 2020

QCFC BANTAM said: ↑

They can play for school and grassroots teams until they are 9. Once they are 9 and still on the books they can't play for anybody else other than the academy team. Have seen it so many times at grassroots where kids are rejected after 3 / 4 years and have lost contact with friends and fallen out of love with the game.
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It's been like that for years and years. Academies at most clubs in the conference wouldn't allow it never mind championship etc. Also - going back onto @Dennis original post why would City let him play rugby for the school and risk injury? Its a commitment from the boy and the club. There has to be give from both sides - sadly.

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