World war 3....

that is so much better put than me shouting


WHAT ABOUT BREXIT?

 

Because it's two thirds of those that voted, not of the total electorate, presumably.

 

2014? Aren't you getting your timelines mixed up? Ukraine became independent in 1991. I think you're referring to the supposed agreement at that time which Gorbachev subsequently denied occurring.

2014 is the year that Russia annexed Crimea and held an illegal, rigged referendum in Donbas, plunging the region into chaos and war. Even if there had been a clear agreement if the type you stated, these actions by Russia would have rendered it null and void. Having seen part of their country annexed and another thrown into civil war by Russia's actions, who can blame Ukraine for wanting the security of NATO membership to deter Putin's obvious designs on the rest of the country?

 

As you say Ukraine became independent in 1991, However a trilateral agreement was signed in 1994 for the Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons in exchange for a guarantee of independence backed by the USA, UK and Russia, After fighting in the disputed Donbas region of Ukraine the Minsk 2014 agreement confirmed the position of the guarantee of independence by those parties including the EU and assurance of non alignment by the Ukraine,

 

trevor it simply isnt 82 against, an abstention is neither a vote for or against or they'd have voted for or against it. I respect your right to hold the opinions you do but you are massively misrepresenting that vote mate

 

brexit is bollocks but there's a land war in europe in which thousands of people are dying. there are other ways to make that point without opening that can of worms yet again.

 

I think even that is dressing up the figures to suit the argument

 

Yes the old saying in politics of there are Lies. Dam Lies, and statistics is still relevant

 

Yep. Counting abstentions as votes against is a classic example of that.

 

Could Sweden and Finland be next on Russia hit list after they have expressed renewed interest in joining NATO against Russia wishes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61066503

 

Made that comment a while ago if Putin doesnt want NATO on his doorstep is he going to invade Finland and Sweden, he's backing himself into a corner here.

 

Reports coming in that Putin has moved military equipment toward the Finnish border now.

 

Just watched an interview with Zelenskyy on Aljazeera and not sure the pressure is getting to him, He was surrounded with Ukrainian and flags of the EU, He seemed to claim that an investigation in to Ukrainian soldiers killing Russian soldiers would be pointless as he believed no Ukrainian soldiers would do such a thing and maybe could be faked easily, He claimed that he will not agree to a peace deal without Crimea given back, The interview was quite extensive but translated in to English so how accurate not sure,
As for Finland and Sweden Joining NATO am not sure that will happen or that they will apply although there has been contention on the Finnish border for probably 100 years including a short incursion by Russia pre second world war

 

one of my favourite independent documentary makers went over to Ukraine. Also great that Jake Hanrahan is involved, one of the best independent conflict journalists in the industry at present and has been for some time. Highly recommend taking a dive into the other stuff both guys have done. some of the vox pops from this doc are taken from an earlier doc where he followed the freedom convoy in the US, where a startling amount of people don't even believe the war in ukraine is real, or are staunchly pro-putin.

 

I can understand the older Russian people believing Putins properganda stil very much the old brigade but not the young people.

 

I can understand to an extent, he's got pretty much total control of the media over there, and to a large degree he's still seen as the moderniser that built modern russia from the wreck of the USSR so they aren't inclined to question him too deeply. Also always worth noting that a lot of older folks in russia are actually quite nostalgic for the Soviet Union and don't all see it the way that we do over here.

 

Yeah it's hardly like our system is fantastic these days is it? Not that I agree with what Russia are doing but Christ the Western world hardly had the right to claim any moral ground.