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Points needed for exiting the fourth tier

Discussion in 'City Talk' started by River_City_Bantam, May 6, 2019.

  1. River_City_Bantam

    P.L. 23/24 Top 20 P.L.24/25 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Top 10

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    As promised/threatened on on another thread, here's a look at the targets we need to be setting for next season. Summary in this post; the next one will have all the numbers for those who might be interested. I've looked only at 1981/2 onwards, i.e. the 3-points-for-a-win era.

    The points ranges for promotions, playoffs, and relegations tend to be rather broad. I've simplified things by looking for the top-7 and bottom-3 in each season, as that's what we need to worry about in the current set-up of the league.

    1st: 82 - 102
    2nd: 79 - 97
    3rd: 75 - 89 (89 prorated from 42 matches, but 88 in a few 46-match seasons)
    4th: 72 - 88
    5th: 70 - 84
    6th: 69 - 81
    7th: 66 - 79
    ...
    3rd from bottom, thus safe: 41-54 (minimum points needed 35 - 52)
    2nd bottom: 34 - 51
    bottom: 20 - 48

    At the bottom end:
    - 52 points needs to be the first/fall-back goal, though the very high 40s are usually safe.

    At the other end:
    - 90+ points usually gets you 1st
    - 85+ points gets you into the top 3 (exceptions: 1981/2 and 2007/8)
    - 70+ points usually gets you into the playoffs (sometimes high-60s will do)

    The highest 7th-place total was 79, in the pre-playoff days, but 78 was needed in 2007/8. So if we want to guarantee a chance at promotion, we should set 78 points as our true minimum target -- 1.695 points-per-match.

    Over to you, Gary!

    RCB
     
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  2. River_City_Bantam

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    And here's a spreadsheet with all the numbers.

    upload_2019-5-6_17-52-40.png

    Notes:
    - seasons 1991/2 through 1994/5 only had 42 matches, so the points have been prorated to 46-match seasons
    - also for these seasons, the bottom 3 places would be 20th, 21st, and 22nd
    - and for season 1991/2, Aldershot's record was expunged
    - only 2 auto-promotion slots in 1994/5

    RCB
     
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    #2 River_City_Bantam, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  3. How

    How Knows Football
    P.L. 18/19 Winner Euro 2020

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    Good work.

    My 83 estimate wasn’t a bad guess
     
  4. River_City_Bantam

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    Indeed a rather good one.

    So much depends on the other sides and the overall quality of the division, as the table above shows. Imagine 97 points and only coming second, or drawing the really short straw and getting relegated with 51!

    RCB
     
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    How likes this.
  5. Hulmebantam

    P.L.24/25 Entrant Supporter

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    I think the most points we managed in our last stint in league 2 was the 69 points that got us into the playoffs.

    Looking at that table for 2012/13, 12 of the teams from that year are above us in the league next season, 6 are now out of the league and the remaining 6 were there in 12/13.
     
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  6. YungNath

    YungNath Impact Sub

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    with all due respect guys this kinda stuff is pointless. you need more points than the other teams to get out the division and thats the only target we should set.
     
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  7. Chapter Two

    Chapter Two Emergency Backup

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    139 - nothing less will do
     
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  8. JimmyBantam

    P.L.24/25 Entrant

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    Although true, it is also useful to benchmark so you know roughly the points to game ratio you need to be targeting.
     
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  9. How

    How Knows Football
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    Not really you don’t.

    Can get 7th most points and still get promoted.
     
  10. Bigrod

    Staff Member Moderator P.L.24/25 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Top 30 Qatar 2022 Entrant Supporter

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    Actually you need more points than 21 other teams to get out of the division (or less than 22 if you want to get out the other end)!
     
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  11. BSABantam74

    BSABantam74 Fringe Player

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    I'll make it simple

    46 Games ...4 Defeats 30 Wins 12Draws = 102 pts ... Ave 4 goals per game promoted by Christmas. Anything less than top three in my opinion will be abject failure by the biggest club currently slumming it in the last chance saloon of the FL. Not interested in a play off place I'd rather we weren't involved than take a chance in a lottery game. It's up to Bowyer and who ever pulls on those shirts to deliver and deliver well !. Bury and MK Dons have shown the way. Lincoln too and non of them are a club the size of us !
     
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  12. YungNath

    YungNath Impact Sub

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    the was exactly the kind of pedantry i was railing against but i brought this on myself
     
  13. How

    How Knows Football
    P.L. 18/19 Winner Euro 2020

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    Thought you said 130+ points other week?

    Accepting mediocrity
     
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  14. Dubois

    Euro24 PL Entrant P.L.24/25 Entrant

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    Here's a related puzzle.
    A premier league owner tells his manager that survival is the only aim for the coming season. The manager replies that he has targetted the minimum number of points to guarantee survival.
    20 teams. 38 matches.
    3 points for a win.
    1 point for a draw.
    Position of teams on equal points decided by goal difference.
    What number of points guarantees survival?
     
  15. Stafford Bantam

    Staff Member Moderator P.L. 20/21 Top 30 Supporter

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    58, I would have thought.
    EDIT: Scrub that, I've just spotted a flaw in my calculation.
    EDIT 2: I'm going for 64 points.
     
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    #15 Stafford Bantam, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  16. How

    How Knows Football
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    40 Usually does it. Or is that not the answer?
     
  17. Bigrod

    Staff Member Moderator P.L.24/25 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Top 30 Qatar 2022 Entrant Supporter

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    1 more than the bottom 3.

    In practice 43. Ask @InterestedBystander about thiso_O
     
  18. Stafford Bantam

    Staff Member Moderator P.L. 20/21 Top 30 Supporter

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    Right, I'm sticking with 64 points.

    I've assumed the bottom 2 teams, both get zero points, except against each other (doesn't really matter whether they draw them or not).

    Assuming the other 18 teams win all their home games, that's 19 matches = 57 points. Add on the two away wins against the bottom two teams adds another 6 points, meaning that the 18 teams would all end on 63 points.

    So the highest number of points you could get relegated on is 63 points. Therefore, to guarantee survival, you would need to target 64 points.
     
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  19. River_City_Bantam

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    Are we in the real world, or a fantasy one? As one can come up with a scenario where the bottom three sides all have four points -- records of 0-4-34, because each of these sides drew both their matches against the other two. Fourth bottom in this case would have to have 18 points at minimum, as they'd have to have beaten each of the three relegated sides. But this is hardly a real-world scenario!

    RCB
     
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  20. River_City_Bantam

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    But the bottom two play each other twice, and so one of them at least must have some points...

    RCB
     
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