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Israel

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Idlebantam, Oct 8, 2023.

  1. SimonW

    Staff Member Admin Moderator P.L.24/25 Entrant Qatar 2022 Entrant

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    Oh stop the hyperbole and fake outrage both of you.

    In your case @Rogered Tart@Rogered Tart you even choose to quote a small section of the whole point just so you can pretend you are Rachel Riley.

    I've hardly called for Jews to be rounded up and gassed, I've simply said that especially in this day and age with social media that can amplify extremist voices even more it needs ordinary Jews to speak up against zionist extremism and certainly speak up about attempts to scare people out of criticising the agenda. When they don't the few pushing the agenda become the spokespeople for the rest and everyone gets tarred with that same brush and it just ups the tension.

    I'm pretty sure if this was about the Muslim community actually condemning hate clerics, people pushing jihad agendas or even carrying out another suicide bombing rather than staying silent like so many of them do you would be all agreeing they need to as staying silent raises distrust of all Muslims and raises tensions because as that famous saying goes “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". It's a viewpoint I would express no matter what group of people were had an extremist problem that made the whole of those people look bad. We have a duty no matter who we are to speak up when people doing something bad 'in our name'


    Certainly making implications of antisemism and almost excusing Isreali actions for the last 100 years because of what happened with Hitler isn't even just doing nothing its effectively condoning Zionist actions over almost the last 100 years by trying to shut anyone who dares call them out by hoping implying antisemitsm shiuts them up while justifying actions due to past persecution.
     
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  2. Rogered Tart

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    Fake outrage? I'll stay civil here. The two people i mentioned were two of approximately 6 million jews slaughtered by the nazis because of their religious beliefs. I won't go into detail here, needless to say i was humbled when i spoke recently at length to my mother in law about her life and how her father came over here in 1938 and was interned in a camp with just the clothes on his back. Others weren't so lucky.
    Now, i have no dog in the fight here, i see problems on both sides that will never be settled due to religious intolerences.
    But if you think my views are based on hyperbole and fake outrage then with respect, my days on conversing with you are over. i'll leave it at a point where we agree to disagree. I hope you respect this request.
     
  3. Tony Wilkinson

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    That's the top and bottom of this, religion the scourge of civilisation ...
     
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  4. Rogered Tart

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    It divided us like nothing else Tone. And is systematically designed to do so.l
     
  5. Tony Wilkinson

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    And the crime is that the poor sods can't escape from it, trapped at birth ...
     
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  6. SimonW

    Staff Member Admin Moderator P.L.24/25 Entrant Qatar 2022 Entrant

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    I'll explain why I said 'fake outrage'. It's because it came across as you intentionally taking about a 5th of that sentence and ignoring my actual point so you can equate me to Hitler. It seemed like you wanted to be outraged by me but I didn't say anything antisemitic so you manipulated my point so you could be outraged. Maybe it is the case that you just didn't get my point and you didn't intentionally do that but that's how it came across. I certainly don't think being outraged by what Hitler did is fake, I'm sure 99% of people agree that's something to be outraged about and it is one of the biggest stains on human history out there but nowhere did I say or imply anything that was antisemitism.

    I don't see what is outrageous about thinking that any group of people who extremist groups have and continue to carry out inhumane acts in the name of them should speak up against it, especially in a society like the UK where you aren't going to get dragged in front of a firing squad for doing so (if this was Nazi Germany or even modern day Russia it would be more understandable). The silence just enables them, makes it look like the whole community supports them and when they then end up labelling anyone outside that community who criticises their actions as things like antisemite or a terrorist supporter you suddenly have everyone being pigeonholed into binary groups, in this case, you are either a Zionist or you are a Hamas supporter.

    Just to sum it up I have nothing against Jewish people on a personal level or on a cultural level, I have issues with their religion but then I have issues with basically every organised religion (some mainly Far-Eastern ones are less about control and more about simply being your best which are more tolerable but most are just things man created to control the masses) and I guess that's largely where my issue with Zionism comes from as its an ideology based on religious teachings telling them that they are the gods favourite and that they are entitled to the land because god promised them it and then that gets used in the worst way that religions get used and that's to treat other people in inhuman ways.
     
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  7. SimonW

    Staff Member Admin Moderator P.L.24/25 Entrant Qatar 2022 Entrant

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    And you manged to get to that conclusion how exactly? How is pointing out that this whole 'we are totally innocent' act is of the Zionists is false the same as denying the attack happened? At no point have I condoned anything Hamas has done, in the other reply I made to you I even called them an extremist group and that even if Hamas is removed we are likely to find another such group takes their place.
     
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  8. SimonW

    Staff Member Admin Moderator P.L.24/25 Entrant Qatar 2022 Entrant

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    Except I would argue it's not religious intolerance in this case, especially with the 3 Abramhic religions as pretty compatible and largely hold the same virtues as they are all derived from the same core. There is a decent amount of tolerance of different religions in the Middle-East even in places like Iran. It's more the ideologies built off the religions especially when that ideology is derived from European thinking and clashes with middle-eastern thinking or vise-versa. If the Arab Jewish population of Palestine had gone from 38k in 1914 to 550k in 1948 I'm just not sure you have the problem. The problem was that most of that rise came from European Jews who subscribed to the European-developed Zionist ideology where the problem seems to be
     
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  9. Chris Redfield

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    People no longer believe in the Greek or Norse Gods which gives me hope for the future. A day when people aren't out raping and murdering in the name of fictitious entities is a day I greatly look forward to.
     
  10. bantam65

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    I trust you'll not be holding your breath though whilst waiting?
     
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  11. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    they only moved from
    One god to another
     
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  12. NorthernMonkey

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    Have the Israeli hostages all been handed over yet?' It's just that you don't really read much about them in between the media fuelled outrage at Isreal.

    Safe to say though that if any of them were my family or even worse, those that were slaughtered, I'd be extremely torn about stopping the military action.
     
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  13. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    no. Hamas have said they can not even work out which of them are alive still until there is a ceasefire
     
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  14. NorthernMonkey

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    Strange that as there was a ceasefire for a limited period while Israel waited for Hamas to return the hostages.

    I'm assuming they knew exactly how many they'd murdered at that point?
     
  15. Bronco

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    I don't think it will stop, can Israel allow Hamas to have anything to do with Palestine going forward,t he more you think about the situation Hamas couldn't have picked a more right wing Prime Minister, you have to wonder if they have an ulterior motive when you hear they use their own citizens as human shields.
    Let's hope this safe artificial island the Israelis are building to get supplies into Palestine works because they ain't going to stop no matter how much pressure the Americans try to put on them, https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2024/01/22/israeli-palestinian-ministers-to-attend-meeting-where-eu-will-push-for-peace/
    "Israeli foreign minister Israel Katz raised eyebrows by showing European Union counterparts a video promoting building an artificial island for Gaza at talks about how to bring peace to the region on Monday. The video caused discomfort among some EU representatives present at the Brussels talks, according to officials, who had hoped to make headway towards reaching an end to the conflict and easing suffering in Gaza as fears of starvation grow"






    You have to wonder are any of the hostages they took still alive.
     
  16. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    Thought the previous short ceasefire was to swap a certain number of Israel hostages for a certain number of Palestinians held by Israel whilst negotiations went on for more. The negotiations broke down, the Israeli bombardment started again, Hamas now claim they can not check in with all their 'teams' due to break down in communication networks until bombardments stop
     
  17. Offcomedun

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    Sorry Dave, but that’s bollocks. What Simon has been saying is historically accurate.
    It’s possible to hate what Hamas did but still be critical of the massacres going on in Gaza. Just like it’s possible to be critical of Israel’s hideous government and its persecution of West Bannk Palestinians without being antisemitic.
    It’s sickening the way that anyone who dares to criticise Israel’s political actions gets labelled an antisemite (even if they’re actually Jewish - as are several of my friends who are deeply critical of Israel).
     
  18. Bronco

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    I don't think I've said anywhere Israel are the innocent party yes plenty has gone on both sides over the years, but as I posted above did Hamas attack when they did because of who was in power knowing he would not be happy with just the hostages handing back.
    All the buster from the he UK, EU, America and others will bring this to an end, he said what he would do and will finish what Hamas started in this particular case, unfortunately to do this the horrendous consequences we are seeing are a part of war.
    What they are doing with regards the artificial safe island suggests it won't stop Israel destroying Hamas.
    Your correct with regards some Isrealis not being happy with the situation prior to the war some were protesting about some of Netanyahus policies and I believe a big rally was being organised for a mass protest.
    Stop talking down to people Steve your not the only one who as friends or associates that are Jewish, you do have to wonder why the examples many have put forward with regards Muslims being slaughtered in the past many times by fellow Muslims not the same world wide reaction as this, you have to ask why only when it's the Jews ?.
     
    #458 Bronco, Mar 15, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2024
  19. bantamlad92

    bantamlad92 Squad Player

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    Your antisemitic undertones are blatantly obvious. Just own it.
     
  20. NorthernMonkey

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    That's just life these days though isn't it? People handing out labels to anyone who dares challenge them as a tactic to silence them.

    Racist, sexist, islamaphobic, transphobic, antisemite and many more are now just words that have lost all meaning and their only use is to try and shut down discussion around the given topics.

    What should be happening is people fighting back against the current 'cancel culture' and, backed by a strong government (I won't hold my breath!) feel like constructive discussions around any given issue can take place without worrying what the perma offended in society think.

    It'll never happen, politics is now just school ground bullying and willy waving so society will go on divided and unwilling to openly and honestly discuss the important topics simply in the fear of picking up one or more of the tags above.

    Apologies to the OP for going slightly off topic but it is all linked in a vague way.
     
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