Brexit

But every club/organisation/society etc has certain bottom lines beyond which it won't compromise its rules. For the EU, open access to and within its borders are dependent on membership. If you have a private members' club you don't just allow anyone off the street to wander in whenever they fancy.

You may not like the fact that the EU is a closed entity, but that's exactly what it is. It's a club that exists to promote the interests of its members and, as was clearly stated before the referendum, leaving the club has consequences. It's not in their interests to alter their rules to accommodate our needs. That would encourage every right wing populist across Europe to promote leaving the EU, in the belief that they can talk the EU into making exceptions for them too.

The EU rules aren't 'gospel' - they are pragmatic decisions that they believe are in their best interests. Of course we can try to negotiate, but we are doing so from a position of significant weakness. The queues are our problem, not theirs. The situation doesn't really hurt them - people are still going to cross the channel and spend money in Europe whether they have to queue for one hour or six. But encouraging more defections potentially might damage them, so it's not in their interest to be seen to be too flexible.

At some point I have to change my views? Why? I have accepted that we have left the EU and now have to get on with making the best of a very bad mistake, that we are lumbered with. I have accepted that that will involve us spending a lot of public money that we wouldn't otherwise have done. I'm not agitating for another referendum or for us to rejoin the customs union. I think that ship has sailed. I've moved on.
We used to have an opt out from the euro zone (which I supported) and a rebate on our contributions. We'd never get those again, so we'd be rejoining on far inferior terms. It's not going to happen.
But unless we start to see some tangible benefits from leaving, which look a very long way off - if they ever arrive - then what is going to make me change my view that leaving the EU was a massive mistake? Its perfectly possible for me to maintain an acceptance that we have left with an ongoing wish that we hadn't.

I think it's much more likely that more and more leave voters will accept over time that leaving was a mistake. One poll taken two weeks ago - before last weekend's fiasco - found that 58% of the population already think that leaving was a bad idea. That percentage is likely to grow as older voters die off and our economic situation gets worse. Of course the really commited Brexiteers - eg those who ideologically believe that leaving was worth it even if it damages our economy - won't change their minds, nor ever admit that any of the detriments are the result of Brexit.

 

To throw one of your replies to me earlier..."Good grief, you're obsessed"

 

The EUs stance on the single market and freedom of movement is entrenched its the basis of the EU. It was clear in 2014 that it would be the case when Cameron came back with zero concessions and thats when we were members of the club. So your point is a bit ridiculous that they should change their rules once we are out because you think they are arbitrary.

Youre meant to be a clever guy but youre just banging your head against the wall missing the entire point. Arguing for arguments sake. Also if I or Off change our minds like you say we should it wont make the EU budge their line on the single market and who can and cant freely move about in it.

Whereas, rather than us changing our minds you should accept that you are wrong on this one.

 

But I don't want free movement. I think free movement is a stupid idea.

I simply want efficient movement for visitors and checks that balance the risks involved with the procedures necessary.

I don't see why this isn't beneficial. I get that the EU want to be insular and protectionist but surely pushing them to make peoples lives simpler is a good thing.

 

so you don’t want free movement you just don’t want passports checked ?

 

I want passports checked aa quickly and efficiently as possible. Yeah. When that happens we have no issues.

When they bring in the biometrics they will need even more efficient processes and creativity.....from both sides.

 

Unfortunately the port hasn’t invested in extra infrastructure so it doesn’t matter how many staff the French send there are only so many Lanes. Without that investment the process will never be efficient

To check biometrics I can not think of anyway that will not slow the process to a standstill as everyone will have to get out to be processed.

 

I think you'll find that this has been a tit for tat discussion between @Aaron Baker and me. So is he obsessed too?

 

I completely agree with both points and I've said so both times.

We need to build more lanes and they're going to have to come up with something that allows for the process to be more efficient because changing the rules to make a problem that everyone can foresee and doing nothing about it is not how you should use technology.

 

No, he's just fallen for your rhetoric , he'll learn...

 

But the essence of negotiation is that there have to be incentives and benefits on both sides to move from the status quo. There's no particular incentive for them to change because the queues really aren't hurting them. It's not beneficial to the EU to be seen to be making concessions on this issue. It could actually be harmful to them.

 

And I 100% get that but is not getting visitors to come to your country to boost your economy a benefit?

Even forgetting that simply making it massively inconvenient for people to make a perfectly legal journey for very little actual positive benefit is a questionable stance for any powerful organisation.

 

And they can. Control your border and let whoever you want enter or live there. Absolutely fine.

That's not what I'm saying though. Administer the processes to control your border in a proportional and rational way.

I'd say exactly the same about how the UK administers their borders. Taking back control doesn't mean you have to piss people off who are legally entitled to visit. It's 2 completely separate things.

And I'm not particularly whinging. I'm guessing that the chances of me ever driving to France are pretty close to zero percent but I like efficient rules whether that's from the UK, EU, USA or Australia.

 

I know.

Why does that matter to what I'm saying?

We don't have any say over how USA, Australia or anyone else set their rules. You can look at them and comment on whether they are proportional or not.

I'm happy to live with the consequences. It likely won't effect me. But I'll happily discuss how sensible or not any rules are from wherever in the world.

 

Have you got a more recent article. I'm not sure that prediction quite came to fruition.

 

Now that's am interesting article. Especially the first two paragraphs......Although the rest of it is worth a proper read too.

And yeah, loads of financial services have opened up satellite offices in the EU (the company I work for being one of them) but they're still funnelling the actual business through London with the overseas offices doing the administration. Its a great way of doing it to be honest, shows a bit of creativity.