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UK Energy Needs

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by trevor, Feb 12, 2022.

  1. Tony Wilkinson

    Tony Wilkinson Squad Player
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    Good info, thank you..
     
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  2. Fuzzy

    Fuzzy Impact Sub

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    It depends on the size of the wind turbines. There's just been a couple of huge ones built in Europe that are capable of 14-15MWatts so if you had 130-150 you'd get the same capacity as Ratcliffe power station which will be the only coal fired power station in England by the end of this year. Also, rather counterintuitively to my mind, the larger the wind turbine, the less wind you need to create energy.

    Personally, I do wonder if giant "centralised" energy production is an outdated concept, whether it's from a traditional power station or from large wind/solar farms. Domestic energy production and storage is getting much cheaper so I can see a shift to a more decentralised system of lots of homes producing their own (probably solar) power and storing it in a domestic battery for personal use with the excess being sold back to the national grid. Obviously we're a long way off that at the moment and not every home would be able to be self sufficient but I think that this type of energy production will provide a decent percentage of the UK's production capacity in the next 20-30 years.
     
  3. YungNath

    YungNath Impact Sub

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    do you think energy companies would let people make money from energy that isn't them?
     
  4. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    It is all about the cost of supply, Elon Musk is heavily in to this in the USA where he sells solar panels and storage batteries to save or sell it back to the energy company cheaper than what they re sell it for to other consumers and cheaper than the cost of producing from the power stations, It is in early days but the technology is already here
     
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  5. Stafford Bantam

    Stafford Bantam Captain
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    When COVID hit, along with the lockdowns, I started a number of projects/hobbies to keep myself busy. One of those was to completely review my energy/fuel usage.

    As a result, I've just started implementing my own personal 5 year energy plan, aimed at eliminating my ongoing monthly energy/fuel costs.

    Done
    1. Purchased an EV.
    2. Purchased a share in a wind farm, to meet my current annual usage. This will come online next year.
    Outstanding
    1. Purchase sufficient domestic energy storage (batteries) to run off cheap overnight electricity.
    2. Move from gas central heating to a heat pump.
    3. Increase my wind farm share (or add a share in a solar farm), to cover my heat pump usage.
    There will, no doubt, be tweaks to the plan, as it is implemented, due to the fluid nature of the energy market, as well as a number of smaller improvements to implement but, at the end of the plan, I expect to be 100% electric, with the wind/solar farm 'income' at least covering, if not exceeding, my demand.

    When I initially put my outline plan together, I was looking at around 10 years to recover my up front investment but, the way things are going, it could now well be 5 years.
     
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  6. Fuzzy

    Fuzzy Impact Sub

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    @StaffordBantam@StaffordBantam how are you weighing up the pros and cons of switching to a heat pump and how ready is your house for it in terms of underfloor heating and insulation etc?

    I know that current fuel prices might end up being a paradigm shift when it comes to switching to heat pumps but they are still relatively expensive to install and the cost is likely to come down dramatically (especially with the planned phasing out of gas boilers that's just over the horizon) so do you think potential savings on gas will cover potentially "overpaying" for being an early adopter of the technology before it becomes more mainstream?

    Obviously I know that there are good ethical reasons for the switch beyond just £'s!
     
  7. Craven Cottager

    Craven Cottager Squad Player

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    My foolish neighbour installed an air source heat pump facing our main bedroom window despite my advising him that it would result in causing a noise nuisance. He ignored my advice. I am a retired Environmental Health Officer well versed in noise nuisance. In short, once the pump was commissioned, the noise resembled a washing machine on a spin cycle. The Local Authority deemed the noise to be a statutory nuisance, served a notice on my neighbour who then had to resite the pump well away from my house. He now has to contend with the noise, I don't. It's well known that air source heat pumps are noisey and installation advice is to site them away from neighbours. The technology around these appliances is not advanced and there are still other disadvantages associated with them.
     
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  8. Tony Wilkinson

    Tony Wilkinson Squad Player
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    They are also about half the size of our kitchen...never gonna happen...
     
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  9. Craven Cottager

    Craven Cottager Squad Player

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    And the radiators are as big as the old style storage heaters.
     
  10. Stafford Bantam

    Stafford Bantam Captain
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    The heat pump is probably the one item that the figures don't stack up for today.

    However, as you say, things are changing very quickly. Have a look at the one that Octopus Energy is developing, which promises to be quiet and very efficient (far cheaper to run than a gas boiler). The price, on launch (scheduled for next month) is likely to bring it down to a level that, with the new government subsidy, will be little different to that of a new gas boiler, and within a couple more years it will be competitive with a gas boiler even without the subsidy.

    When I started developing my plan, I initially ruled out heat pumps. Then, as the energy market changed and heat pump development acccelerated, it came back into my plans. Even so, the heat pump is/was the final part of my 5 year plan. However, that final piece may yet be brought forward by a couple of years.

    Oh, and the heat pump I am looking at would be, more or less, a straight swap for my existing gas combi boiler, supplying existing (or maybe one or two upgraded) radiators and providing hot water.
     
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  11. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    A very good plan if you can afford it. Unfortunately most people won't have the luxury of being able to budget for things like electric heat pumps and electric vehicles as they currently stand. I know someone who designs electric heat pump systems as his business and they will become more cost effective as the technology changes.
     
  12. Fuzzy

    Fuzzy Impact Sub

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    During lockdown I discovered the "Fully Charged" and "Undecided with Matt Ferrell" channels on YouTube which cover a lot of emerging energy tech stuff and some of the inovations and solutions that people are coming up with are fantastic.

    There's loads of examples but learning about Bi-directional car charging and a "vehicle to grid" eco system was one area that really brought home to me how much our energy use and how we manage supply is likely to change as we transition from fossil fuels. Some newer EV's can now allow bi-directional charging so you can use energy stored in the car battery to power other things e.g. your home.

    An office car park in Utrecht has had a load of charging stations installed and been covered with solar panels and it can generate up to 1,000,000 kWh of electricity a year which more than covers the need of the office building. However, there's not as much sun early in the day when people start work so at the start of the day they draw power from the car batteries in the staff car park to power the office building and then by mid morning the available solar energy increases which covers the building's needs and fully charges the cars for when the staff go home. They reckon that if they can get to a point where 10k cars are part of that system (about 10% of the cars in Utrecht) then they would be able to manage the power needs of the civil infrastructure in the city purely from wind/solar without the need for additional storage.
     
  13. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    They have installed a ground source heat plan in a local block of flats at an enormous cost drilling down hundreds of feet and most are unhappy with it as the heat produced has to be bolstered with an electric heat source to bring it up to a usable temperature. Most are now using oil filled portable radiators as cheaper to run
     
  14. Stafford Bantam

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    Heat pumps operate at significantly lower temperatures than most gas boilers and this needs to be factored in when switching over.

    Often larger 'radiators' are required and use of a heat pump central heating system needs to be operated on an 'anticipatory' basis. It lends itself to smart technology very well.

    Over the 2021/22 winter I've been trialling using my gas boiler at much lower temperatures than previously, to try and identify where radiator upgrades may be required if/when I switch to a heat pump system.

    It sounds like the system in your local block of flats has not been installed correctly and/or the residents don't understand how to fully use the system. A modern heat pump system should be operating at efficiency of 400% plus, so if people are finding oil filled portable radiators (which are typically just over 99% efficient) cheaper, then something has gone badly wrong.
     
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  15. Craven Cottager

    Craven Cottager Squad Player

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  16. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    I must admit I was under the impression that air sourced heat pumps, required an underfloor system to be installed, if not the whole building then on the ground floor and that the boiler had to be located outside the building, so couldn’t fit into the internal space that a current Worcester Bosch occupies?
    In respect of the size of the radiators, we have ours mainly located under windows. We would struggle to fit in larger ones if they were substantially bigger. Finally I had been told that you virtually had to have insulation to such a high level, that most houses build before WW2 would not meet the requirement. If air doesn’t circulate, then the potential for mould and indeed dust build up allergy enhancing conditions could become more prevalent. I am interested on both an environmental/moral basis as well as cost.
     
  17. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    One of my neighbours has a ground sourced heat pump system which was installed (not retrofitted) when the house was converted about 6-7 years ago. According to the builder, it didn't cost much more than a conventional gas powered hesting system. They have underfloor heating and the heating is brilliant. It runs almost constantly during the winter months and is still apparently very cheap to run. The only downside to speak of is the extensive maintenance required every year (far more than a convential gas boiler) and that the water isn't sufficiently hot for showers, baths etc. It has to be augmented with an additional electrical 'immersion heater' which heats up the water to a much higher temp.

    Another neighbour looked at having a similar ground system installed (they already have underfloor heating) but were put off initially by the cost of the ground source system itself which was in excess of £20k. Theirs is a big house and they have the luxury of land surrounding the property. I can't imagine many in the future will be retrofitting ground sourced systems in most parts of the country!

    I'm personally waiting for green hydrogen to arrive to be supplied through our existing gas supply network.
     
  18. Stafford Bantam

    Stafford Bantam Captain
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    You are right that, to date, heat pump central heating systems have required a high standard of insulation and larger radiators (compared to gas central heating), but the technology is improving, and coupled with smart technology, the gap is being closed.

    Heat pumps currently heat water to around 45°C to 50°C, whereas gas boilers are typically set at around 70°C (which, for a combi boiler is way over its most efficient temperature). I've been running mine, over the last few months, at 50°C to 55°C, to get an idea of the issues that switching over to a heat pump may cause.

    Without having made any changes to my insulation or radiators, I have found that the main change has been the need to turn on the heating earlier (anticipating when I'll need a certain level of heat) and run it for a bit longer. This is where the use of smart technology can really help and, if I go ahead with the switch to a heat pump, I intend to take full advantage of such smart technology, to factor in weather forecasts with my own heating requirements.

    But first, to make this work, I need the overall cost to come down, which is where Octopus Energy's claims about their new heat pump system are of particular interest (I'm sure other companies will be developing their own as well).
     
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  19. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    I live in an old Georgian era house. The rear of the house is where our current boiler is fitted. Outside is a right of way to two other houses, so it may not be possible to fit one if it impinges on the access route. There are a lot of old terrace houses, which don’t have land outside the building, where an external air heat source pump could be located.

    A couple of weeks ago I spent some time in West London. The number of Tesla and other electric vehicles was staggering. They have charging points in W2, on a vast number of lamp posts, however I would estimate that there are five/six parking spaces between each lamp post! Again where there is high density accommodation (flats/terraces) the ability to charge vehicles is limited to say the least.
     
  20. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    Simon Evans (@DrSimEvans) Tweeted: 649 onshore wind & solar projects in the UK *already have planning permission*, meaning they could be built quickly

    If they all went ahead, they'd save more gas than we currently import from Russia

    My analysis features in this great piece by @paulwaugh

    https://t.co/eprYCfBpQr https://t.co/FFIdv6621e
     

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