Brexit

I agree we will work it out given time. The trouble is we had worked it out and very favourably. We might be better off but it’s a big risk. I’m not confident that those proposing it have our best interests at heart. The low tax model doesn’t sit comfortably with me as it’s a race to the bottom. I’d hope eventually that tax rules stop the shifting of profits to countries with lower tax rates. Something the EU was trying slowly I admit to stop. When negotiating with a pop of 60m do we think we will get a better deal than 600m?. It was also a rotten lie that we had laws pushed into us. As a country we supported over 95% of the laws and drafted many. I personally think half the reason people want to leave is they are just fed up. Inequality is massive due to chronic underinvestment. Brexit won’t solve that and create some utopia. In fact its likely to increase inequality as workers rights lessen. I’m a big fan of stopping tax avoidance. Why doesn’t this happen. Because politics is dominated by rich people and influenced by massive multinationals. Is capitalism good; yes. But only when the wealth filters down.

 

I'd have said the same if it had been one of our negotiators, negotiate hard by all means but don't think you know what those voters thought at the time of the referendum just because its not what you thought

 

I do agree with a lot of what he said.

He was basically saying people campaigned for it but had no plan as to how it would actually happen. He also said something along the lines of those that voted for it need to get more creative with solutions.

I have to say I agree with a lot of what he's saying. It's not upto him to negotiate a deal. The burden is on us. In all my working life I've never seen a situation where someone negotiates an agreement but then comes back later to try and get a better deal! How ridiculous! Sorry, but you should have pushed harder the first time!!

 

There was nothing in place firstly Cameron & Co never expected the vote to go the way it did, just how much out of sync were politicians with regard the working man.
The EU can't make out they had a plan they didn't as this is the first time any member state has made the decision to exit, it was always a juggling exercise with the EU holding most of the balls that were being juggled.
I don't have a problem with the EU making it difficult they don't want to lose the second biggest contributor to the EU budget.
As the vote was won by the leave campaign I would have thought it made sense for any negotiations to be done by someone who believe they could make a good deal for the UK but straight away Mrs May got the reins she wanted to try and pacify the leave votes the remain voters and her Tory party, and something had to give, I think it was the very people who won the referendum vote that should have had priority.
Unfortunately the ruling class don't work like that, and Labour under Corbyn have become a joke, a question was put to Diane Abbott on Question Time the other week when she started going on about a General Election and let the electorate decide (again) when the Tory on the panel said why would Labour get in, she started on about recent polls and the Tory said the Labour party are 20 points behind the a Tory party that is disliked at this very moment.

 

He was only talking about the Brexiters without a plan, mate. Don’t get your knickers in a twist.

 

I know what he was saying and I believed he made a t**t of himself, as I originally posted the EU didn't have a plan in place they just made it up as they went along.
But because they knew once someone who was not prepared to play their trump card (leave without a deal) could be rode roughshod over and we are now seeing May trying to pacify all parties and that can't be achieved.

 

Have they not sorted the thing yet?! What a massive fookin surprise! And these are the great learned minds of our time, that are going to weave their magic on WTO terms negotiations yeah right.

Top posts by @Damo and @Botswana Bantam . The latter exactly. It’s us who wanted to leave, the burden is on us, well the ones so vocal in us leaving, and where the hell are they eh?? It makes me laugh when folk complain that the EU just don’t give us exactly what we want.

 

We started with all the power on our side, then gave it away by being weak and subservient...

 

It wasn't up to the EU to have a plan. If you leave a club you don't expect that club to have a plan for how you live the rest of your life outside it.
The EU has been completely consistent. It set out before referendum that if Britain wanted to have most of the benefits of free trade/absence of border checks etc then it would have to abide by the EU rules. The problems have arisen because many people here thought that they need us more than we need them, so we can have our cake and eat it. They don't, and we can't. That's Brexit reality.

 

The Brexiteers' delusion. The EU holds all the cards. It always did and it still does.

 

You know the ruling class's never expected that vote to go against them, the politicias who said we will back the countries decision quickly resigned and walked away.
Theresa May took the job on but as we know she is a remainer it was always going to be difficult as she wanted to try and pease everyone.
We have 50 days left we've gone back for the wording of the back stop changing whih the EU negotiators saying is not up for renegotiating, if that is the case walk away, all a game of bluff and counter bluff unfortunatly we have had weak people negotiaing for the leave side.
I posted when she brought the present deal back it was totally uneceptable and until the back stop is changed so we decide when to exit, it is unacceptable.

 

You've just contradicted yourself there mate......

 

I really don't understand @Bronco - why would the EU need a plan? Surely those who leave need to have the plan?

 

In what way have I contradicted myself?

 

This.

 

So they make it up as they go along ?
No body knew what would be required once Artical 50 was triggered, we had other countries part involvement with the EU like Denmark etc but we voted to leave the EU and the Customs Union so we could not do what the likes of Denmark were doing (although some offered that as a part salution) as they have to be accept EU controls on certain things, I believe free movement for one ?.

 

I agree with some of what you've said there Dave. From a Remainer's perspective, Cameron sold us down the river. For pure Tory Party reasons he called a referendum that he didn't want, with an unspecified Brexit question that counted every shade of Brexiteer as voting for the same thing (which is like saying every vote in a general election that isn't for the government counts for the official opposition). Then he ran the most feeble pro-Remain campaign imaginable, which allowed Farage and Boris to dominate the debate and suck in millions of undecided voters with wild promises of billions for the NHS and other total hogwash.
I also agree that the backstop is unacceptable, though probably for different reasons from you.
But none of this is relevant to the question we were discussing - ie 'the plan'. The fact is that the EU didn't need a plan, because it is us that's leaving them, not vice versa. They just stuck to their existing rules and said '' take it or leave it, like it or lump it ".

It's an illusion to think that our current mess is caused by poor negotiation. It isn't. It's caused by May's red lines. If we insist on no free movement, no single market rules and no customs union then the EU will continue to insist on an open ended backstop to protect itself from us undercutting them during the transition.
The trouble with ' walking away ' is that it will lead to a No Deal Brexit, which would be an economic and social disaster for us. The EU doesn't want a No Deal Brexit, but it will allow it to happen rather than be forced to make exceptions to its rules for us.

 

Which just shows 1. how bloody stupid it was to trigger Art. 50 before we had defined what sort of Brexit we wanted and 2. most people who voted for Brexit had no idea what they were actually voting for.

But actually, the EU was pretty clear what the Art.50 would entail. And it was blindingly obvious, even before it was triggered, that the EU held all the cards.
You say that the negotiations should have been conducted by Brexiteers. But the leading Brexiteers - Davis, Fox, Johnson, Raab & co - have all been shown to be various shades of liars and incompetents for not understanding the processes and making wild promises that they could never have delivered.
It makes no difference whatsoever who is or was negotiating on our behalf. As long as we insist on May's red lines we be treated like a threat and a competitor by the EU. We can't have special status as an ex-member. And we can't have our cake and eat it.

 

I would have liked our government to go to the EU once we knew the outcome of the referendum and given them Artical 50 and said we leave on 29th March 2019 and left it with the EU.
Then we would not have had to play this game of "last man standing" because there will be words added to the back stop to try and get it through Parliament with enough MPs to support the new offer, as we agree ( for different reasons) it is unecceptable in its present state.
If the EU refuse to alter the wording then we walk away as many leavers wanted in the first place.

 

We voted for the two things David Cameron mentioned on the steps of Downing Street why, when he said exactly why we shouldnt leave.
And they were we to leave the EU and also leave the Customs Union.
We've debated this issue many times and the old nugget from the remainers camp is not everyone voted for that, well I'm sorry but when talking to like minded leavers that is exactly why they voted leave to achieve the likes of border control, immigration, free trade with the world, we take control of making our own laws, and we did not want to be part of the ever growing " United States of Europe".