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Mourinho Sacked.

Discussion in 'General Football' started by bantam65, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. bantam65

    ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter

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    Hahahaha... arrogant git.
     
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  2. Interested Bystander

    P.L. 23/24 Winner ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter
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    Edin poised to take over, assisted by Michael Collins
     
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    Offcomedun and bantam65 like this.
  3. bantam65

    ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter

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    That would be sooo funny. Alas too much to hope for.
     
  4. Interested Bystander

    P.L. 23/24 Winner ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter
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    They'll probably give it to some no-mark like Zidane
     
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  5. Offside

    Offside Impact Sub

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    Woodward and his cronies should follow him out of the door , same through out Football at all levels, no nowts ( Rahic ) buying players -- interfering in matters ( football wise ) beyond their remit .
     
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  6. Steve1970

    Steve1970 Squad Player

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    Greg is lined up for this job they saw the potential early on this season.
     
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  7. Ricc

    Ricc Impact Sub

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    I'm disappointed they've made this decision. I said to my mate last night that it feels like they have to make a decision one way or the other - back their man, sell Pogba, and reinvest with players he wants, or if you think Jose has lost the dressing room and the problems are his doing, then sack him, keep Pogba and see if a new man can get a tune out of him and his sulky team mates.



    I think they should have taken the first option, personally
     
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  8. Aireboro Bantam

    Aireboro Bantam Impact Sub

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    I've always been a fan of Jose but he has failed at Man Utd. That said, I think Man Utd's problems go higher than just the manager. They are so far behind their neighbours Man City in so many ways its difficult to see Man Utd winning anything soon. They need further change otherwise the top five as it is now will leave them behind and Man Utd will become also rans on a regular basis. Who they appoint will probably be a good indicator of where they stand in Europe.

    As for Mourinho, I'd love to see him take on a team a bit further down the league and try to take them to the next level - someone like Everton for example. I don't think its the end for him unless he takes the easy option of China, America etc. He also might wait it out for international management which he has been linked with in the past.
     
    Dennis likes this.
  9. Ricc

    Ricc Impact Sub

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    I think Mourinho will end up back at Real Madrid in the summer.
     
    Damo likes this.
  10. Get Rid Of It

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    Bet liverpool and man citeh fans will be gutted for Maureen.
     
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  11. Bantamspaul

    Bantamspaul Impact Sub

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    Jose has been sacked? Why have no media outlets picked up on this?
     
  12. Interested Bystander

    P.L. 23/24 Winner ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter
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    Be interested in @SimonW@SimonW 's view.
    Supporter reaction seems mixed.
     
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  13. How

    How Knows Football
    P.L. 18/19 Winner

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    Outdated and left behind by his peers.
     
  14. Aireboro Bantam

    Aireboro Bantam Impact Sub

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    There would have been a time where Man Utd could approach anyone for the job and they'd take it immediately. An interim manager doesn't make sense to me especially when the likes of Zidane, Conte are readily available. They are in danger of writing of the next couple of seasons.

    Unless they are going to go down the route of giving a manager a bit of time to build a project, i.e. poaching someone like Eddie Howe. But we've seen how quick they were to abandon that with Moyes.
     
    Fools Gold likes this.
  15. Ricc

    Ricc Impact Sub

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    I've heard this a lot, but I don't buy it.

    he won the europa league and the league cup, got the club back in the CL, and last season was the closest challenger to an absolutely rampant and unstoppable Man City side. I just can't see the evidence that he is out dated, or past it.

    he obviously had issues with his players, and thats why the team are poor this time.

    if it was me making the decision I'd back Mourinho, and shift out the poison in the playing squad, starting with Pogba. 100 million for him would go some way to funding players that will work for their manager.
    It was always one or the other, shame its done for Jose though. the man is a proven winner.
     
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  16. alex

    alex Impact Sub

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    Fans/shareholders at the top clubs want more than just a few second tier trophies though. They want entertaining football and they want to challenge for the top competitions. I would imagine Liverpool fans would see last season (playing great football and getting to the champions league final) as more successful than if they played like Man Utd and won the league cup.

    I think he has been left behind now, they are miles away from challenging for the top trophies and the gap between them and the other big clubs is getting bigger under his leadership rather than smaller.
     
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  17. SimonW

    Staff Member Admin Moderator ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant

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    A lot of the blame Woodward has got is misplaced. For starters, he hasn't been going around choosing who to sign, they have been manager led apart from on one single day (Deadline day in Moyes season, they were players Moyes was interested in but had wanted 6 months to personally scout despite in most cases United had already spent a year scouting and in some cases such as Herrera and Thiago just needed him to sign off but he wanted to personally scout first)

    Woodward doesn't really decide who to buy, it's mainly dictated by the manager although the medical team's opinion is also a factor (as it should be) and it overall finances do play a factor if the managers being unreasonable. United's setup has always been and still is that the manager identifies the targets, him and the chief exec discuss it where the Chief Exec gets the football knowledge he needs to negotiate (Specifically the valuation so they have a window to bid between). People seem to think you need knowledge of football to do deals but that didn't stop Gill who knew about as much about football as I know about Ballet (Basically nothing) and even now his football expertise is on the business side of running football based companies. They just need the right information from experts to be able to negotiate from a strong position. For example, before joining United Woodward worked for JP Morgan in Asset acquisition, let's say BA wanted to buy new planes and went to JP Morgan to help them buy a new fleet of planes they wouldn't have expected Woodward or whoever was assigned the task to be an expert about planes, they would speak to an expert to get the information needed to frame any deal but it's the negotiation skills they are hired for not knowledge in the area.

    The issue seems to be more the information he has been getting. Jose is renowed for basically feeling a players value is whatever it takes to get that player that he wants. If he wanted a 35 year old with 1 year on his contract and it was up to him he would spend £200mill without doubt if that's what it would take which doesn't really help anyone. A club that hires Jose really does need a DoF even if he hates having them and will freeze out many of the players the DoF buys (although he freezes out the players he chooses too) because otherwise the non-football person doing the negotiations are left high and dry

    Pretty much every club he has ever managed must be full of sulky players as he losses the dressing room at club. The reality is he has no man management skills and when you couple that with an ego the size of the earth its always going to lose the dressing room as he won't adapt and will blame the players rather than take his share of the blame.

    United's squad is as strong as anyone in England if they are used correctly and as with all modern footballers are man managed correctly. Jose was toxic in the dressing room and always has been which is why it always falls apart for him. Pogba is the perfect example of this, he isn't a defensive pivot, he has never had those qualities to do that, even in his first spell with us it was his weakness and was the reason he wasn't given more chances as he needed to develop that. Going to Italy meant he never needed to as they set up so he wasn't asked to do that and at this point its too later to really develop that. When it doesn't suit his style and Jose constantly criticises him its going to hit his moral, especially when for the last 12 months he hasn't been worse that Matic who has been the second defensive pivot yet Matic has been immune from criticism from Jose.

    Behind the scenes its also right up there. We may not have the flashy training setup but its been constantly upgraded and has all the top level facilities. We have a professional scouting network of 54 full scouts which is more by a long way that the likes of City have and that doesn't count the part-time ones mainly focusing on the 8-16 age ranges.

    The problem has been the manager

    It actually makes perfect sense. The club were looking to bring a DoF in before appointing Jose. He insisted on not having one as he hates working under them. It made sense also simply because any style that fits United DNA doesn't fit with how Jose would want to play so they would have been butting heads left right and centre, after all Jose hates pretty much every signing that was his choice let alone when someone else is buying players for him to fit a style that doesn't fit his

    This gives them time to get the DoF and have them involved in shaping the ongoing style and setup of which appointing the correct manager to fit that identify
     
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    #17 SimonW, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
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  18. Aireboro Bantam

    Aireboro Bantam Impact Sub

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    Great post @SimonW@SimonW. I disagree in parts but its good to have some reasoned debate!

    I certainly don't think Man Utd's squad is as strong as anyones. Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have players on their bench that would walk in to Man Utd's side, especially in defence and creative positions. Mourinho shares his responsibility for that but, as you say, he never seemed happy with the players that he had - why?

    His use of Pogba is interesting and I don't focus on Man Utd enough to know the full picture but from afar, it looks as though there's immensely talented player who also has a detrimental impact on the ideology that Jose usually tries to instil. There's a reason why France have to surround him with two hard working players at all times in Kante, Matuidi, N'Zonzi or Tolisso. Even Griezmann was expected to do defensive covering at the World Cup. I'd wonder if that system could adapt to the rest of the players that Man Utd have or be successful in the Premier League.

    My question on the DoF route would be why now? Why appoint Jose in the first place if that was the desired route? Woodward has been there for some time now and I feel like his appointments are very reactive. Maybe it will work out but all I can see is a few more years of dominance from Man City & Liverpool which will certainly test the patience of Man Utd fans whoever the new guy is and whatever the system is.
     
  19. SimonW

    Staff Member Admin Moderator ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant

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    While there is nothing wrong with playing defensive the problem with Jose and what makes him a dinosaur is that he doesn't adapt.

    The way he sends his team out to play is a structured defensive setup designed to draw the opponent onto them so they over commit. They then try and force and hit them on a quick counter attack.

    His preferred formation on paper looks like a 4-2-1-2-1 as shown below


    1.png


    However out of possession the winger with the higher work rate almost drops in as a FB, with that FB shifting inside to make a 3rd CB. This is why at Chelsea he loved Ivanovic as he could do the FB role but his natural position was CB so having him tuck in was ideal. So positionally it would be something like below


    2.PNG

    From there they would try and force a mistake and then get possession to quickly move it forward, usually to the striker via one of the two defensive pivots. The Striker would have a defender on him but due to over commitment forward couldn’t get too tight, the advanced winger can then run past the striker and the Attacking midfielder can go the other way, one of the pivots would step forward to offer a ball back while the winger who dropped to FB would start going forward. The defence which was already stretched because they had been lured into over committing get pulled all over the place creating even more space for the attackers to exploit


    3.PNG 4.PNG

    Managers started to work that out though during the second half of his league winning team at Chelsea. They would be more careful and ensure they kept more people back. That cut off the space for the players exploited on the break and more importantly they could commit to having a CB tight on striker. This not only cut off easy outballs for the striker but also made it much harder for the striker to keep hold of the ball so moves broke down more and the number of clear cut chances fell significantly. To create space it also means the AM and winger are more likely to come deeper to get the ball which would see the striker become more isolated

    At Chelsea to offset that he pushed Cesc back to the DM Pivot to use his creativity to try and get the ball out of the defensive 3rd in a more effective way. At United he did the same with Pogba. Problem is they weren’t playing there in the first place as their defensive ability is lacking which actually makes the defensive unit weaker. And it doesn’t really create that many more chances. Especially as it usually see’s them replaced with a more high energy AM but who naturally finds themselves further up the pitch and creativity in the pass is less their wheelhouse, they are picked more to have the energy to shuttle between being a CM and almost a second sticker to try and prevent the striker becoming isolated


    5.PNG



    And that’s where Jose ends up struggling. And it’s a big part for his 3rd season implosion. Usually its not a problem because he gets sacked in the 3rd season and then jumps to a new country, a country where managers haven’t come up against him in person so he gets away with lining up as normal and having success until they have played him enough to also start working out how to counter it. He didn’t jump this time so when he was in the same country just at a new club everyone was wise.

    A less stubborn manager would have adapted even if not to a completely different style, just adaptation to his defensive style but he won’t, it’s the exact same principles with the same issues and the same way to nullify it

    The annoying thing is when Rui Faria left it was a perfect chance for him to push himself to evolve. What Fergie was great at doing was bringing in number 2’s who challenged him to evolve. Something Faria didn’t seem able to do, it seems his main quality was more at being the buffer between Jose and the players. Instead, he gave Carrick a job and promoted Mckenna from the academy who couldn’t ‘challenge’ him so now we had an assistant who wasn’t pushing him to be different and was a less effective firebreak for the players
     
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  20. alex

    alex Impact Sub

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    My god is like Gary Neville on MNF in this thread!
     

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