1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Bantam Talk

    Why not register for an account?

    Not only can you then get fully involved in the community but you also get fewer ads

  3. Premium Membership now Available


    Please see this thread for more details

    Dismiss Notice

City Managers Records and achievements

Discussion in 'City Talk' started by Rogered Tart, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:34 PM.

1233455667778
  1. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    7,659
    Likes Received:
    17,250
    Don't mind a rumour here and there but it's descended into the micro analysis of McCalls record as manager.
     
    Botswana Bantam, BL_ and Bronco like this.
  2. Bigrod

    Bigrod Moderator
    Moderator Supporter P.L. 18/19 Top 10

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    4,386
    I have always been anxious about Stuart McCall’s returns to the club. I was worried in 1998, as he had been injured whilst playing in Scotland and following his first stint, then in my mind he was already a legend. However his return was followed by an epic spell.

    In respect of the first management spell, then I think the vast majority were in favour. I have to admit I was sceptical about his second return. However he got us to the play off final and with the Billy Clarke miss and their ‘off side goal’, then it wasn’t to be. Working with an owner who has decided they don’t want you at the club, who is in effect undermining you must be exceptionally difficult.

    The ‘end of the second spell’, started in earnest on 6th January 2108, the Hendrie ‘gate’ defeat at Yeovil. I understand there were serious issues between Rahic and not only McCall but members of the team. The season then imploded, with Rahic not strengthening. When McCall was sacked, City were 6th, despite a ‘Championship’ manager taking over (Grayson), the same players ended up 11th, so the team actually deteriorated.

    McCall’s statistics during his second spell was an impressive win rate (and better before 6/1/2018).

    McCall 2016/2018 = 45.83%
    Paul Jewell = 39.32%
    Chris Kamara = 35.71%
    Trevor Cherry = 41.2%
    Jimmy Wheeler = 34.78%
    Peter O’Rourke = 41.05%

    So which ever way you dress it up, the facts are what they are.


    upload_2020-8-1_19-50-39.png

    upload_2020-8-1_19-51-19.jpeg
    upload_2020-8-1_19-52-19.png
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Dennis

    Dennis Moderator
    Moderator Supporter P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    2,969
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Impressive statistics. SMc's win rate was better than Parky's, Kamara's and Jewell's. And yet they achieved promotion for our club whilst unfortunately Stuart couldn't do it. It's a shame that SMc's win rate wasn't converted into a promotion.

    But that's probably because promotion isn't based on win rate; it's based on accumulating more points than other clubs and if necessary, beating them in a play-off. For that more balanced view and to see how promotions are earned, there's another dimension and that is a manager's losing rate. That's where Stuart falls down. His losing rate was worse compared to others who were more successful than him in terms of promotions.
     
  4. Park bantam

    Park bantam Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    8,871
    Likes Received:
    7,536
    just shows the value for scratching round for a point when not playing well
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Dennis likes this.
  5. Fordy117

    Fordy117 Just call me Mr Flip-Flop!

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    10,119
    Likes Received:
    7,385
    Agree.

    As I said when we go on a losing run then McCall struggles.

    He disappointed me the other night with we can like this, we can play like that. It's like no have a game plan and it's easy to understand that when it goes wrong why McCall struggles.

    Let's hope it doesn't go wrong.
     
  6. Bigrod

    Bigrod Moderator
    Moderator Supporter P.L. 18/19 Top 10

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    4,386
    Actually in respect of Kamara and Parky, it was purely down to winning the important Play Off final. In reality that is all that separated them. We have to accept that in 2016, Parky failed at the first hurdle of the Play Off’s.
     
    Chad, Bronco, BL_ and 1 other person like this.
  7. Park bantam

    Park bantam Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    8,871
    Likes Received:
    7,536
    One of the few games that counted he lost
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. XCIV_Bantam

    XCIV_Bantam Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    291
    Im sorry fella but you are getting confused here buddy.

    Hes managed many clubs. Hes only got the the triple at one club once. Doing this once does not disprove my point about pep needing time at multiple clubs. You saying it took him one year to achive his record breaking season only proves my point!

    I honestly don't know how your day has been but you have been salty and frankly toxic for no reason. Hope your day is going well!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Interested Bystander likes this.
  9. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    7,659
    Likes Received:
    17,250
    To get as close as McCall did at Wembley yet it is deemed as failure in the eyes of some is all down to opinion i guess. I didn't want to get dragged into this debate. I do believe it was a lazy appointment but not to the detriment of McCalls potential as a manager which some people have. One gilt edged chance missed in a winner takes all match of few genuine chances is not failure, well not in my eyes. To have bettered 19 other managers in the division to get us to the playoff final should be viewed as a big positive, not derided as some utter failure.
    That one chance of Billy Clarke's is the difference between a promotion on your record or a fruitless season. That doesn't make you a bad manager, the opposite in fact.
     
  10. Feats Don't Fail Me Now

    Feats Don't Fail Me Now Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2019
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    352
     
  11. Bigrod

    Bigrod Moderator
    Moderator Supporter P.L. 18/19 Top 10

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    3,887
    Likes Received:
    4,386
  12. River_City_Bantam

    River_City_Bantam Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 2nd Place

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    1,244
    Likes Received:
    1,130
    I have to disagree with you on this point. Here's the records (League matches only) of our managers from Stuart's first spell onwards:

    upload_2020-8-2_0-26-2.png

    And here's the bottom, and thus the good end, of the losing % list: (again, League matches only). Games played - WDL - and % WDL

    upload_2020-8-2_0-27-33.png

    Kamara's losing % was 39.39%, and Jewell's, 39.05%.

    Granted, Staurt's not-as-impressive first-spell numbers are more than compensated for by the impressive second-spell numbers; it remains to be seen what effect the third spell will have. But even so, Stuart's first-spell losing % was still better than that of K. and J. So I don't think this particular stat can be used against Stuart.

    RCB
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Bronco, Bigrod and Botswana Bantam like this.
  13. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2018
    Messages:
    1,015
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    I appreciate all of your work on this in response to what Dennis said but my personal objection to a focus on win/loss rates when trying to judge a manager is more simple.......they don't take into account objectives.

    You could have a 50% win rate and fail or you could have a 30% win rate and massively overachieve.

    In every season here McCalls objective has been promotion, he's been expected to be towards the top of the league. You would therefore expect a good win rate.

    Kamara, Jewell and Parkinson actually achieved something.....promotion....and therefore had seasons where their primary objective was just to stay up in the new league. All of which they actually achieved. Your win rate will obviously suffer when you're trying to consolidate at a new level.

    Weirdly, focusing purely on win/loss rate is actually praising Stuart for never actually getting promotion. He's never had to adjust to a new level and had his win rate suffer as a result.

    That's why win/loss rate is a meaningless stat in isolation.
     
    Parader and Storck like this.
  14. Park bantam

    Park bantam Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    8,871
    Likes Received:
    7,536
    Parky s figures are heavily influenced by the fact he took over one of our worst sides ever which meant he was fighting a relegation battle Stuart took over a side in his second spell that was very solid
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. trevor

    trevor Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    2,926
    Figures of which manager got this percentage or that percentage are interesting but totally beyond the point,
    The only measurement of any value is what did they actually achieve,
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  16. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    7,659
    Likes Received:
    17,250
    As a slightly tenuous link to the managers records at the club, taking a look at the clubs season history is grim reading. Apart from 82-90 where we were promoted from 4th division to 2nd division, the Richmond years and Parkys promotion and the subsequent playoff years it literally is a club there to make up the numbers.
     
    Hulmebantam likes this.
  17. Captain Grumpy

    Captain Grumpy Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    747
    Win percentage is fine, but do you know who has by far the best win percentage as England manager? Well it's Fabio Cappello by some distance and I don't see the FA clamouring to get him back.
     
  18. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    7,659
    Likes Received:
    17,250
    Football is a game of fine margins which ultimately determine success or failure. Yet the best football i've seen this club play in the 40 years of supporting them was under Terry Dolan who if measuring by success achieved nothing. And history shows he nearly achieved the dream of first division football in a league where we were punching above our weight after nearly always been in the bottom division since the end of world war two.
     
  19. trevor

    trevor Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,978
    Likes Received:
    2,926
    League positions and in which division is a measure of achievement, Dolan just missing out on promotion by a whisker was an achievement but he still failed to achieve that promotion where others with a poorer percentage actually achieved promotion, Measurement by win percentages are dependent on to many variables to judge accurately a managers performance where promotion or relegation etc are a tangible event
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Well-Known Member
    P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    7,659
    Likes Received:
    17,250
    Oh i agree, Parkinson had a huge slice of luck that Dolan didn't get in that Exeter completely self imploded otherwise that would ultimately have been a season without playoff football. Also Dolan was playing in a division where the teams were of a much higher standard with a very small squad of players. The variables rarely get a mention, people are fixated by win percentages or the like. An example being Leeds 2 seasons ago where they should really have gone up, they were arguably the best side in footballing terms yet a season was determined by a second half fifteen minutes of madness in the playoff second leg.
     
    Interested Bystander and trevor like this.

Share This Page