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Social Care, NHS, National Insurance

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Aaron Baker, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    It's not being driven by pay increases despite what some Govt ministers have said! It's a consequence of the fall in average earnings during Covid from shutting down parts of the economy and furloughing a few million. Now that the economy has reopened, average earnings have been restored and therefore have increased from Covid times. Although some may have reveived a pay inceease, most of the 8% increase in earnings has arisen from people going back to full pay from working again. It's just a consequence from pay bouncing back to normal levels.

    I guess that's why the Govt is suspending the earnings part of the triple lock for 12 months. If however, they try doing it for longer than 12 months, they'll have a hard time justifying that!
     
  2. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    Somebody may well have misunderstood what was really said!

    The important aspect is that NI will in the near future be paid by those over 66 who are still working post the state retirement age.
     
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  3. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    Aah! I thought it might be something like that.
     
  4. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    I presumed it was that but had been at work until late tonight so hadn’t read any of the detail just seen people talking about 8.8%. Maybe what they should have done is take the increase from two years ago and factored in last years pension increase
     
  5. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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    It is being levied on dividends.
     
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  6. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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    It is being levied on dividends.
     
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  7. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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    At least credit should be given for at least an attempt to do something about social care. The trouble is the NHS is a cash cow and no matter how much you put in it will swallow it up.
    A root and branch efficiently drive needs to take place and a national plan for social care so that the extra money can be justified.
     
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  8. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    The tax system is too complicated. Whatever they would have done there would have been instances where a pensioner would have been worse off than a young working person or someone who earns more through one type of income pays less than someone who earns less through a different income stream.

    Is there any argument at all for not just doing away with NI, increasing Income Tax to smooth that out and simplify the whole thing? You'd probably have to keep the differences for the self employed and Capiital Gains to encourage entrepreneurs but the difference would be easier to judge and see and simpler overall for everyone.

    No political party suggests it so there must be some reason for it but I can't think of a single one.
     
  9. YungNath

    YungNath Impact Sub

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    Nothing to do with salary and more to do with the fact younger people will spend longer paying the higher rate regardless of salary, as obviously they will spend longer being of working age. Also think it's somewhat unfair that I will pay more but my landlord, who has a portfolio of around 20 properties and much higher income than me as a result, will pay nothing more. pretty obvious stuff really


    solutions for alternative ways to raise funds
    -use the £350m a week saved in contributions to the EU (hahaha)
    -Scrap the wildly inefficient and obscenely over budget HS2



    left leaning people's views on taxation are a bit more nuanced than hurr durr i like it when people pay more tax
     
  10. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    There's always going to be people who pay more with any tax rise. The landlord thing is a good point in this occasion but there is never going to be a tax rise which encompasses all the 'right' people, the tax system is too complex for that.

    As for he alternatives.
    • Aren't we still paying at least some that money to the EU as part of the divorce bill? Isn't it something like 2025 before that drops down? Even ignoring the fact that some of the savings will have been eaten up by furlough, testing, NHS capacity, etc, already.
    • Fully agree but scrapping infrastructure programmes doesn't save the full amount (it generates tax from the activities as well as being paid by central funds) but I completely agree it should be scrapped in it's current format..
     
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  11. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    NI contributions (paid during paid employment) are what are used to calculate your state retirement pension entitlement. They also used to be used to calculate your entitlement to Unemployment Benefit, but I don't know if that's still the case.
    You stop paying NI contributions when you retire from paid work because you are no longer contributing towards your pension. But you still pay income tax if your income is above the tax threshold.
    For example, I am 65 and receive an occupational pension from West Yorkshire Pension Fund. As that is above the threshold I pay income tax, but don't pay NI contributions because I'm no longer contributing towards my state pension, which I'll start receiving when I'm 66. My income tax will go up up then because my income above the threshold will increase.
    I assume it's the link between NI contributions and state pension/unemployment benefit entitlement that is the reason that NI Contributions are kept separate from other taxation and would be difficult to abolish.
     
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  12. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    There have been many attempts to at least start to harmonise the tax and NI systems. There are lots of reasons why that hasn't been successful but other than one big issue, I don't understand why more hasn't been done. As an example, the lower earnings level at which NI become payable was being gradually increased to match with the basic income tax personal allowance at which point income tax is first levied. But that was then quietly dropped when Osborne was trying to take more people out of tax .. but not out of NI! Bizarre.

    But there is a fundamental (and political) issue with NI and pensions. Tax is clearly levied on all pension payments but NI is only levied on earnings (which don't include pensions) and even then only upto retirement age. Can you imagine the furore if one of the political parties were to propose levying NI on pensions for over 10 million pensioners whose tendency to vote in GEs is greater than for any other demographic? Even though it's the right thing to do, I can't see it happening.
     
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  13. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    There is no link between benefits and other state provisions like the NHS and National Insurance although it is used for how many years paid in to determine pension rate, The link was broken years ago to stop the comparison between what was paid in and benefits provided so any surplus or any of it could be spent on general provisions not just social provision,
    For the party of low taxation it is now at a record with around a third of wages now taken in income tax and NI

    As for spending the £39 billion it will be interesting that only a fraction is going to social care and majority to the NHS to shorten waiting times then the money will be transferred to the adult social care system, So to shorten the waiting times they will use the money to hire more doctors and nurses however again it will be interesting in that if or when the waiting list comes down to switch the money over to Social care will they then sack the extra doctors and nurses to free up the money to transfer it,
    In truth it is all a lie and a con job and the extra money will disappear in the system as this profligate and incompetent government wastes it,
     
    #53 trevor, Sep 8, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
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  14. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    Wonder if Boris and the Torys will restore some of the 17,000 NHS beds got rid of since they came to power,
     
  15. Skyebantam

    Skyebantam Impact Sub
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    spot on :thumbup:
     
  16. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    they are trying to match Labour cutting 25k in their last 6 years in power
     
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  17. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    They are both as bad as each other although i'd say the present government is the worst in living memory. Its hard to think of anything they've done that you could put a positive spin on despite bumbling Boris's claims. You could say getting the vaccine out to the public but then that would be like letting a building on fire burn out of control then sending in the fire service when its burnt itself out. I mean,wasn't Brexit supposed to get rid of EU beaurocracy and administration, companies have more red tape and paperwork than ever. Johnson claiming 20,000 new police officers when it was them that got rid of them in the first place, the whopper about numerous new 'hospitals being built', funniest thing i heard last week was Sajid Javid claiming the Tories 'believed' in the NHS lol. And then the NI price hike when he steadfastly said it wouldn't happen a year or two back.
    I try not to get involved in politics anymore, it drains me mentally, but how much more of this bullshit do we have to endure? After all this and more there is still a very good chance the Tories will be reelected with or without Johnson.
     
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  18. Nottsy

    Nottsy Squad Player

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    Wouldn’t matter if Starmer got in at the next election anyhow. Let’s be honest, there’s a fag papers difference between the 2 parties at the minute, has been for the last 25 years, we’re a one party state. It’s just a competition to see who can be the most patriotic, act like they really like football and butter up the true leader of the country, Rupert Murdoch. We really are pathetic.
     
  19. Clity

    Clity Fringe Player

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    After income tax, NI increases, student loans I think I read that young people earning over 27k now are paying 42% tax. Top that off we have house prices at the highest ever. NIMBYS (usually old people) blocking new houses being built.

    The older generation are simply living off the next.

    @YungNath@YungNath has it right
     
  20. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    I don't think they do. If you earn £27,500 you take home £22,350 so a notional tax of about 15%. The deduction for student loans is only £12 a year.

    Will that fact change your mind? Probably not.
     
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