Liverpool fans...

It's not written by a Guardian journalist though. It's written by someone who actually knows what goes on in French football.

 

With a viewpoint to suit the narrative

 

In fairness it's also someone that has a narrative that was never going to lean on the side of the authorities. I've no doubt that they were hugely at fault on the day but an interview with someone who is leading a football supporters group was never going to be impartial.

 

As a person trained in social science I recognise that there's no such thing as fully impartial. Everyone brings biases with them, however neutral they intend to be.
My bias is usually to trust the views representing ordinary people - in this case football fans - over those representing the vested interests of those in power, particularly when they have form for corruption and cover ups.

 

Yep, I'd fully agree with that.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10904189/Champions-League-chaos-caused-operational-failures-NOT-Liverpool-fans-report-finds.html

A report commissioned by the Prime Minister of France has found operational failures – rather than Liverpool fans with fake tickets – was to blame for the chaos which marred the Champions League Final.

The 30-page document, released today, highlights significant issues with crowd management, a lack of information on entry points and a failure to read warning signs over the presence of ‘malicious individuals who came in large numbers to commit acts of delinquency’ as the main contributing factors that led to ‘a climate of tension’.

I think we can treat this as impartial in that we would expect it to go the other way. The fact it hasn't is pretty damning

 

And is based on a report commissioned by the French government. I'm not sure how conclusive people need it to be??

 

How "conclusive" do people need the videos of fans in red shirts climbing fences and barriers to get past check points to be? I've posted a few if anyone needs to look again.

I completely accept (and did from the start) that the organisation was absolutely horrendous and they should absolutely hand out fines and compensation where appropriate and the french police were nothing short of a disgrace in the few clips I've seen.

However, I still believe as football fans we have to accept that the disorganisation and chaos doesn't excuse the behaviour in the videos I posted and we can't always lay the blame elsewhere. At some point, as a club and as fans, they/we have to take some responsibility and if necessary take the action needed to prevent people like that accessing football matches.

These idiots are causing the kind of response to any trouble that you've seen in this thread and that thought process is replicated all over Britain and indeed Europe. That's not just purely down to ignorance or tribalism, a lot of it is because of the evidence you can witness for yourselves in these days of camera phones and all the numpties that want video trophies to show their mates.

 

I just don't see those videos you posted as being a big deal The first showed just a handful of fans trying to climb a fence out of a much bigger crowd who'd been locked out and were shouting 'open the gates'. The second was very unclear and mostly just showed fans running from the turnstiles to the ground, which you might expect if they'd been locked out for ages and were anxious not to miss the game.
I'm not saying that every Liverpool fan did nothing untoward. But nothing you've shown me suggests anything that significantly impacted on the situation compared to the now clear incompetence of the authorities and police

 

No problem, we've clearly got different ideas on how fans should behave at matches. If you think scaling the fences and jumping turnstiles is acceptable to avoid being "late" then fair enough, I can see why you've no problem with the behaviour.

 

I'm not saying it's acceptable. I'm saying it's insignificant compared to the incompetent logistics, organisation and policing of the event.
If you submit any large crowd of people to unacceptable conditions you are bound to get a few hotheads who take matters into their own hands. That's nothing unique to Liverpool fans. But that makes them a consequence of the disorganisation, not the cause of it.

 

Completely agree.

 

Two French Senate committees absolutely excoriating the handling of the final by the police, local authorities and UEFA and accusing the French Interior Minister of lying about Liverpool fans and fake tickets to deflect blame from the incompetent planning and handling of the arrangements.
I think this comprehensively puts the tin lid on the idea that Liverpool fans were to blame. They were the victims, as the report makes crystal clear.

BBC News - Uefa Liverpool final: String of errors in French handling, says report
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62146769

 

Even the ones that were videoed jumping fences and turnstiles?

 

They may have been out of order doing that, but they didn't cause the problems. If tens of thousands of people are corralled for hours, pepper sprayed, preyed on by local hooligans and kept waiting to enter the stadium until after kick off, even though they arrived in good time, you shouldn't be surprised if a very small proportion of them take matters into their own hands. That would happen if any other club in the world were treated as they were.

 

Agreed that they didn't cause the problems but they certainly added to them.

The point I've been trying to make is that as football fans perhaps we should sometimes take responsibility for our own actions and get our own houses in order before always pointing 100% of blame elsewhere.

In this case the authorities failed the fans badly but that shouldn't fully absolve the small minority of misbehaving fans of any responsibility.

 

Of course not. But this thread started with the premise that Liverpool fans caused the chaos, which simply isn't true.
Also, don't forget that some of the automated turnstiles failed to recognise legitimate tickets. If I'd bought a genuine ticket and paid the fare to Paris, only to be refused entry by a malfunctioning machine, I might have been tempted to jump turnstiles or climb fences.

 

Each to their own. If it ever happened to me though I'll just mention it to a steward who can hopefully help me resolve the problem without taking the law into my own hands.

 

It didn't sound like there were lots of helpful stewards around, itching to offer advice and assistance though. Sounds like it was total chaos