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How Long?

Discussion in 'General Football' started by bantam65, Nov 20, 2021.

  1. Bronco

    Bronco Star Player
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    I'd think Mauricio Pochetinno would be very high on United's wanted list, IMO it would be a better managerial challenge than Paris Saint-Germain, obviously we don't know how Mauricio would see the challenge, but for me living in Paris a quality side that he has at his disposal now, with owners who are more than happy to spends, would I want to go to rainy Manchester even thought they are a world class club.
     
  2. Bronco

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  3. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    The issue with Paris is they're model is: if you don't win the Champions League, you're gone. I think the idea of a 4 or 5 year contract, with a degree of patience and more financial support than he had at Spurs, will appeal to him greatly.
     
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  4. Bronco

    Bronco Star Player
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    Yes PSG are very much in the mould of Real Madrid & Barcelona.
     
  5. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    Actually, he was excellent for most of the match. He might have made the wrong choice on their second but TBH he had to cover the potential cross and someone else should have been picking up Sarr and there was the mistake that led to his second yellow but he was by far the best of the defenders. Lindeloff especially how he calls himself a professional footballer when he is constantly taken out of the game by taking up starting positions that even a 5-year-old wouldn't take (mind you he is better than that other fraud Bailly).

    On the no fight, you don't get as many comebacks as there has been without having a fight, the problem this season has been players making individual errors way too much. AWB especially is like he has had his brain removed. Take the goal Everton scored as an example.
    IMG_0638.jpg

    Here is highlighted. He has two choices he engages the player fully and tries to win the ball or he drops off covering the space leaving Fred to get back and hound the player while knowing even if he keeps running down the wing with a head start and his pace it's not a major threat. But what does he actually do?

    IMG_0641.PNG

    He just half presses and shadows the run. The other Everton player has space to run into which he can't now cover but its also now too late to engage the player with the ball, he is making the pass the second he tries. If he did try and cover the runner he leaves the run down the wing as Fred has basically disengaged thinking AWB is dealing with it

    IMG_0640.jpg

    And as you can see it's a really simple ball to play. In reality, the Everton player plays a slightly harder version that makes it even more deadly as well but he didn't need to try that, the only thing with the easier pass is the runner may have had to check his run a bit and Shaw who has seen the danger and is tucking around may have had a split second more and increased the chance of him being able to make a more meaningful tackle.

    Although its not just AWB at fault. The player on the Wide Left hasn't been helping, when AWB does something dumb they just aren't being aware enough of the danger unfolding. On this same move lets go back to when United put the corner in

    IMG_0643.jpg

    Here we have Sancho, not only is he deeper than Lindeloff but I'm sure we can all agree Sancho is pretty rapid, certainly quicker than Lindeloff and as Everton break, he is looking at the whole thing and doesn't react to the danger
    IMG_0644.PNG

    When Townsend gets the ball where exactly is he. Townsend was in his own box, deeper than Sancho and Sancho has just let him run past him and not react. Just look from the other angle

    unnamed (1).png

    He is still in Everton's half rather than tucking round putting Townsend under pressure

    To highlight how poor it is from him here are the United players who were ahead of him when the corner was put in (and Sancho started dropping back when the others were still moving forward as well and continued dropping before the others even started)

    unnamed.jpg

    Only Ronaldo is still ahead of him. It was a similar thing this time with Rashford for Liverpool's first goal, Rashford just watched their player run into space with the defenders having all had to shift across to make up for another poor AWB decision. It's just a total lack of game awareness being shown that compounds personal mistakes. And then the personal mistakes have spread
     
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  6. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    The squad doesn't really need that much work. Bailly and Lideloff need shipped out and a better 3rd (and maybe 4th) choice CB who either a) has the Football IQ to adapt their starting position for English football or b) one with proven PL experience so when one of Maguire or Varane (or both) are injured you aren't having to throw in one or both of the chuckle brothers in would be good. Most importantly it's not a DM like the most claim that is most needed but actually a Box to Box midfielder. A DM with Matic's ability and Freds energy would be good but in Matic, Fred and McTominay there are good enough to do a job IF they have a good box to box midfielder next to them. After all, without that player, even the best DM in the world is going to keep getting exposed. As it is right now you either player Bruno, Pogba or VdB in that role who all lack defensive awareness (or in Pogbas case he is the laziest player on the planet and doesn't even want to try and defend or improve his defensive skills) or you play 2 of Fred, Matic or McTominay and you lack the ability to transition play so the defence and attack are disconnected.

    What is probably most annoying is both Pogba and VdB on paper could do that role. Pogba is quick when he wants to be, is well built and has great passing. He would only need to put serious work into his tackling and defensive positioning but he doesn't seem to want to. He has said multiple times when he has made a defensive mistake that its an area he needs to work on but he looks no better than he did in the reserves during his first spell. And he spends way too much time strolling around like its a Sunday morning walk. And for someone so well built he is weak. Players will tell you about Valencia who wasn't anywhere near as well built as Pogba that you would hit him and bounce off him and that's because he knew how to use his physicality. Pogba in the u18's didn't need to learn that, in his own age group you could see players see who it was and bottle out. When he moved up to the reserves that was a problem, more experienced often first-team pros would just bully him, even if they were stick-thin hobbits and when he moved to Juve they setup in such a way that others did that for him plus Italy is a less physical league anyway. Here he gets bulled again by small players and he sometimes looks like he can't even be arsed to try and be physical. This can also be an issue when he is on the ball, if he sees a pass on before he gets the ball then great but he likes time and space to find a pass if one isn't instantly on and he gets closed down and dispossessed a lot. VdB is a bit like a mini-pogba, he has the benefit of at least not being scared of putting his foot in but he is still pretty weak but you lose the range and quality of Pogba's passing a little, him putting his foot in doesn't really make him better all-round option than Pogba. He is also not great at tracking back and like Pogba his defensive positioning in the more direct style of the English game is poor.

    I think if you look at City they highlight how important the B2B role is. If you can get at Citys DM no matter who it is not only is he exposed but City CB's have over the years not been the best, they have been lucky when they have had one solid one in the pair (Kompany for example) but most of the others are suspect. Teams don't often get the chance to get at the DM or CB's though because the B2B protects them so the DM can just do what they are good at and that's reading the game and cutting out danger before it becomes dangerous. He doesn't need to be high energy, making lots of tough tackles and playing killer balls. Get a decent B2B in the United midfield and even with his legs going Matic would be perfectly fine and suddenly the midfield has way more balance allowing everyone else to be unlocked. It's actually a shame for Ole that Jose froze Herrera out meaning by the time Ole came in and brought him back into the team he had already agreed to join PSG as Herrera would be great in that role, while not outstanding in any area he has the energy, decent enough defensive positioning and decent passing that a massive step up on anyone currently in the squad
     
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  7. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    I think there's more work needed than you realise.

    De Gea - seems far more prone to throwing a clanger than the likes of Alisson and Ederson. He's shown that he is capable of playing at outstanding levels, but can he replicate that consistently? At the very least, there's a question mark.
    Wan-Bissaka - who on earth sanctioned 50m on him? Very good in defending 1 on 1s but terrible on the ball, positionally awful too.
    Shaw - he was excellent last season and in the Euros. Can he produce that level consistently though? Big question mark.
    Maguire - one of the most over rated players in the league. Never captain material in a million years. He's having an awful season, which exaggerates the negative element of how talented he is. If the new manager wants to play a higher line, higher press type game, he'll be even more exposed and will need to be replaced.
    Lindelof /Bailly - both are far too prone to errors.
    Fred - Do I really need to say anything?
    Rashford - he's regressed over the last 2 years, albeit he's apparently been playing with injury for much of that time.
    The Centre-Forward spots - Ronaldo has been a phenomenon. But he's 37. His goal contribution has been very good, but there has to be a ? about whether he undermines the wider team structure because United aren't good enough to have him work outside of a system and just focus on what he does in the box.
    Pogba - He's going anyway. Lots of talent, but empty headed. Can't be trusted when it matters.

    As a club, United have lost sight of their footballing principles, they're driven by commercial success much more than footballing success. They have non-footballing people making football decisions and/or inexperienced footballing people in key roles. The coaching looks non-existent and there's a palpable drop in the ruthless and relentless standards that top sides need in order to drive a winning culture.

    Some of the above may look different under a proper, world class coaching team, but I think its a real mess and its going to take a hell of a lot to put right. It needs 5 or 6 out, the same in, and a very different mentality inside that dressing room.
     
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  8. SimonW

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    I don't understand the appeal of Poch tbh. Let's just look at his record. League Cup and Champions League runners up with Spurs. Winners of the french cup and runner up in what is basically their charity shield. The fact he failed to win the league last year when a weak league was made weaker by the Tv deal collapsing forcing others to sell lots of their players. Even this season while 14 games in he look like they will win it that's after another massive firesale by french clubs. And threw away a couple of Leagues with spurs they looked in pole position to win as the other big teams were struggling

    Ole probably has a better record tbh. 4 Cup semis at United, Europa League runners up and a 3rd and 2nd place league finish at United. And took Molde, a club who has spend more time in the 2nd division of Norway than the top one and who have no pedigree to 2 league titles and a cup win

    Poch seems to be one of these managers where perhaps their style gets people to talk about them but seems to actually be more style over substance. If we were going to go that route and get someone who people rave about style then I would prefer Potter tbh. At least you can't look at his record take the lack of top achievements as a negative as he has never been in a position to have a team that can win the big prizes.
     
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    #28 SimonW, Nov 22, 2021 at 12:10 PM
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021 at 12:32 PM
  9. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

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    Who would your choice be, out of curiosity?
     
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  10. SimonW

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    You say that but let's look at the stats for errors leading to goals in the PL for the past few seasons

    18/19. DDG made 4, joint 3rd worst in the League. Alisson was 5th worst with 4. Ederson made 0
    19/20. DDG made 3, Joint 3rd again Alongside Ederson. Alisson was 15th on 1
    20/21. DDG made 1, which was joint 10th alongside Ederson. Alisson mad 3 which was joint 1st with Kepa. Henderson was joint 3rd with 2 on way fewer games as until DDG went away for the Birth of his baby Henderson was mainly playing cup games
    21/22. DDG is joint 1st on 1. The others haven't supposedly made a mistake but how Alision isn't listed as having made any after the West ham game I'm not sure.

    And what you need to take into account is shots faced, the more shots you face the greater chance of an error an DDG has been facing way more than the other 2. For example so far this season DDG has had to make 36 saves, Alisson has made 26 and Ederson 13. And last season United keepers had to make 100 saves (DDG 60, Henderson 40) while Liverpools also made 100 while having defensive and midfield issues (Alisson 84, Adrien 10 and Kelleher 6) and City made 69 (Ederson 66, Carson 2 and Steffen 1). And 19/20 it was United 96 shots saved (all DDG) City 76 (68 Ederson, 8 Bravo) and Liverpool 72 (58 Alisson and 18 Adrian)

    There is also obviously confidence, much like how strikers will go on runs of poor finishing keepers do with Errors. DDG certainly was going through that between 18/19 and 19/20 where his confidence just wasn't as high as it was. After his almost faultless couple of seasons, a dip was always coming. He has been pretty much back to both his best shot-stopping wise and cutting out the errors the last couple of seasons.

    The other thing as well a lot of the United games have been tighter affairs, a mistake in tighter affairs is more likely to impact the result and its more remember, if Alisson or Ederson drops a clanger in a game they are walking people don't remember it

    In general, I don't think he is positionally awful. He has been this season as he has been making brain dead decision after brain dead decision but its perhaps his positioning that's the strongest part of his game usually which his why his success in tackles is usually so high as he gives himself the best chance of making the tackle from his positioning. He has improved a lot on the ball and I do wonder if perhaps it's that improvement that's hindering his defending, he is more confident getting forward now so maybe he is pushing higher into positions he isn't naturally comfortable being in and gets caught out by that.

    The lack of competition is most likely not helping either, Shaw had to step up because in Telles he had someone who if he didn't would take his position. No matter how bad AWB plays he has Dalot who is basically a 100 times worse version of TAA. Like TAA he cant defend to save his life and is better more as an attacking player BUT he isn't anywhere near as good at attacking as TAA. If Trippier hadn't been priced out of a move not only would we have had a better backup but AWB would have been pushed on

    Maguire's stats do not actually agree that he is having an awful season. The only area they are down in is interceptions

    He isn't as bad as people make out, you are a consistent starter for Brazil if you are awful. He has just become the whipping boy for mainly the Pogba fan-boys to deflect from what a waste of talent Pogba is due to his sheer laziness and that ends up being something everyone jumps on. He isn't the greatest player in the world and I certainly don't think I've ever seen a Brazilian with a worse shot than him but he is functional if you have a balanced midfield to put him in especially in games where you need high energy in the centre of the park. He wouldn't perhaps be a starter in an ideal squad but I would take one of him over 10 Pogba's any day as at least he tries to maximise his talent

    Has he really though. He scored 22 in 19/20 and 21 in 20/21. His previous best was 13. He also assisted more and created more chances than he has ever done. And that's with him missing a fair bit of 19/20 with a back injury which would have kept him out of the Euros if they hadn't been delayed and the playing much of 20/21 with a shoulder injury, a foot injury and still having some issues with his back. I believe even now he still has some issues with his foot and back but with him being taken to the Euros he was only able to have his shoulder dealt with. So the fact his output hasn't dropped doesn't show a player that's regressed. It's not like he is Martial whose numbers have fallen off a cliff

    Alot gets made of this by fans but actually if you listen to journalists who aren't just pandering for clicks its really not the case. Football decisions were largely being made by the Manager, Chief Scout and Head of Development. And now that also includes both the sporting and technical directors. That's all football people. The only time non-football people get involved is when it comes to the money side which is the case at most clubs. Woodward and then Judge were doing negotiations which is actually in their wheelhouse, you don't need football knowledge to negotiate deals. Woodward in his previous pre-united role wasn't knowledgeable on the things he was helping negotiate the purchase off, he used the expertise of people in those fields to guide him. Its like with Gill, Gill knew nothing about football when he took the United job and even as he learnt more and became a football fan Fergie identified the players and combined with what Fergie felt was their football value and the value to the team and with Gill knowing what was financially viable he was able to negotiate from there. There seems to have been this myth that's grown through that DoF's identify targets and then buy the targets but most don't as very few people have a football background and business skills. They hand the negotiations off to people with business skills

    On the coaching its hard to know as you don't see training (and when cameras are at training they intentionally do low-level stuff so as not to give anything away), you can do all the coaching in the world and it be amazing coaching but you can't hold players hands on the pitch. Just look at Pep's first season where they looked a shambles at times despite them having spent seasons buying players they knew he would like (as the DoF's are his ex Barca ones so they know him) as they would go to pieces when they stepped on the pitch. He had to do another rebuild to find players who wouldn't make as many mistakes and forget the coaching when they stepped on the pitch and the pressure is higher and other factors come into play that isn't there on the training pitch
     
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  11. SimonW

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    It's tough as there isn't an absolutely perfect candidate out there. The last thing you want is to undo everything Ole has done to find much of the club's identity again which I why I hated the idea of Conte as he is basically just another Jose. Zidane has some elements to him that would be a good fit but he was a real negative for youth players at Real and could be pretty defensive in his style. Poch I just think is a bottler, Rodgers is similar and I don't see either being successful despite having better styles and being pretty good with youth.

    Maybe ten Hag from Ajax, decent style, good with Youth but then doing well with Ajax means very little. Would be interesting though to bring him in and Van Der Sar as Ed Woodwards replacement as while its rumoured Arnold will take over from Woodward the fact nothings been announced yet suggests that's not nailed on and VdS has done a good job as Ajax CEO
     
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  12. Faithful Bantam

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    I think Ten Hag is ideal. But the only way he;d have any chance, is if the likes of VDS and his coaching team come with him. If he's forced to work with the current setup at United, he's doomed to failure.
     
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  13. Faithful Bantam

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    @SimonW@SimonW - a comprehensive response. I can only go by what I see - United look all over the place, and I'm not sure you can really trust in the talent and character in enough of those players. As a group, they're a long way off.

    Ole should never really have been given the job. It was a poor decision. In the club and Ole's defence, he's repaired the toxic atmosphere left by Mourinho, but he's never going to have them competing with the very best. Even last season, when they recovered losing positions, it was all too often as a result of individual talent rather than any coherent sense of coaching. Whenever I watch them, there's no obvious game plan or identity, they're horrendous at playing out from the back, completely fragile. Maybe a quality manager can get a much better tune of them, we'll see. But they need to restore the principle of what proper teams are all about, and there are a couple who need exiting from that dressing room sharpish, and a couple more who need some serious reality checks.
     
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  14. Bronco

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    I think he'll be the next Man United manager.
     
  15. bailiff bridge bantam

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    Ok.
     
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  16. Offcomedun

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    Yet he was excellent at Sheffield United, Leicester and for England. All of those setups had/have good defensive coaches and clear tactical plans, not something that could be said about Man U under OGS. Perhaps he's a player that likes to have coherent instructions and players around him that know what they're doing.
    I'd bloody love to see Maguire at West Ham and I'm certain he'd thrive under Moyes.
     
  17. Faithful Bantam

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    He has some qualities and his defensive performances are looking more exposed for a number of reasons over recent weeks. But he's limited. He struggles when he's pressed and he can't play in a team that has a higher line. He's a penalty box defender. And he's not a leader.
     
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  18. SimonW

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    Maguires problem is pace and the issues elsewhere at United expose that. For starters, there is the centre back partnership. Between his and Varanes injuries they have barely played together or for that matter had that much training together to start building up an understanding. He has played more with Lindeloff and Lindeloff is just as slow. Not to mention Lindeloff as I've highlighted before he has awful positional sense and that causes his defensive partner to have to always be looking to cover and for that you need pace or you expose yourself. It's not surprising that when Lindeloff looked at his best it was with Smalling beside him because for all the stick he gets Smalling reads the game well and is pretty pacy which is everything you need to be able to cover your CB partner without causing other issues.

    Then you have the midfield issue. With no-one who has all the qualities needed to play as a Box to Box midfielder what happens is either you go double pivot but you can't transition the ball so it keeps coming back or the DM gets exposed because the likes of VdB and Pogba don't want to do the defensive stuff. Both encourage the attackers to stay high and allow the midfield and wingers to push and it makes it easier to exploit the pace issue.

    If both him and Varane and stay fit and start building an understanding and a Box to Box can be brought in who is happy to do both sides of a box to box players job and to a decent level then you will see his level seem to step up.

    Mind you because he is English and cost a lot much so how 'bad' he has been is massively exaggerated. Take the 4 CB's United mainly have used over the last 6 seasons, they are Baily, Maguire, Lindeloff and Smalling. Of those 4 Magure and Smalling have by far the best stats and Lindeloff and Baily have more mistakes that lead to shots and mistakes that lead to goals but which 2 players get all the stick? That's right Maguire and Smalling. And which 2 have the United fans constantly demanded play, that would be Bailly and Lindeloff, even when almost every time they have played together its been like watching the Chuckle brothers
     
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  19. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    Yes, he's not the quickest. But nor was Bobby Moore. Maguire has lots of other qualities and, as you say, needs a consistent partnership with a competent CB partner and a midfield that doesn't keep leaving him exposed.
    BTW, did you see my last PM about the City shirt?
     
  20. Faithful Bantam

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    Maguires problems are about more than pace. He suffers badly from concentration and once he's pressed, his arse falls out.
     
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