Quantcast
  1. Welcome to Bantam Talk

    Why not register for an account?

    Not only can you then get fully involved in the community but you also get fewer ads

  2. Premium Membership now Available


    Please see this thread for more details

    Dismiss Notice

England v Italy

Discussion in 'General Football' started by Bronco, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
    Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L.22/23 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant Supporter Euro2020 Winner Euro 2020 P.L. 20/21 3rd Place

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2018
    Messages:
    7,082
    Likes Received:
    10,893
    In whose place?
     
  2. Fordy117

    Fordy117 Just call me Mr Flip-Flop!
    Bubbles car wash

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    17,408
    Likes Received:
    14,433
    Mate, Henderson is a leader and has more to his game then both Phillips and Rice. We didn’t need to play two defensive midfielders.

    Look, massive game in which we needed to attack you start with players that can handle the big matches players that play for Liverpool & Utd etc.

    Southgate messed up and we won’t get anywhere under him until he understands attack is the best policy of England.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. NorthernMonkey

    NorthernMonkey Squad Player
    P.L. 20/21 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    9,634
    Likes Received:
    19,018
    What? Are you actually being serious?

    Firstly, Luke Shaw was probably our player of the tournament.

    Secondly Henderson has been out injured and clearly wasn't fully fit. Add to that Phillips and Rice were ticking along nicely and building a decent understanding.

    Thirdly, Rashford has also been injured, had a massive loss of form and is rightly no where near the starting 11. Perhaps he's been distracted by his admirable charity work but there's definitely been a drop in performance levels to the point where he's probably now 3rd or 4th choice for the left forward slot.
     
  4. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
    Admin Moderator Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    5,721
    Likes Received:
    3,831
    The problem is with the racist abuse is these players with the help of the media and people wanting to be seen as being 'woke' are increasingly bringing it on themselves. Much of it isn't coming from actual racists, actual racists don't wait until a player does something wrong to abuse them (not to mention actual racists are usually smarter in how they are abusive it's usually less on the nose), it comes from trolls and trolls do it for attention. And everyone keeps giving them attention which encourages them and encourages others to join in. And actual racists will love it as it gives them cover as it makes dealing with actual racists harder.

    The correct way to deal with them is for everyone to not publically respond, mute them (and yes mute not block, muting does what is known as shadowbanning which means people don't know their messages aren't being seen, getting blocked is seen as a badge of honour for trolls) and report them. Without getting oxygen most will go away leaving the real racists and because there is now less of it it's easier to deal with the people who actually need to be dealt with.

    As we are seeing if we keep shining a light on it then it will keep getting worse as they get their self worth from getting reactions even if its negative
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
    Admin Moderator Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    5,721
    Likes Received:
    3,831
    Except the 5 at the back worked, you saw the second we switched to a 4 how much more space the Italians had and how they were able to play between our lines rather in front of them.

    We did need a change after halftime. As I've said in other post they were tighter to Kane in the 2nd as they weren't worried about Mount and Sterling running in behind and that removed the outlet, pushed Kane even deeper and the whole team dropped back further, especially the WB's but it wasn't a formation change, just personnel. We needed to at least one quicker player around Kane, if not 2 be it Rashford, Sancho or Saka (although I felt he was a rabbit in the headlights when he came on) around him. Would have made the Italians have to worry about players going past them which would have given Kane more space and pushed our starting positions up that vital distance.

    As for Henderson, he shouldn't have started. I'm not sure he should have even been in the Squad tbh. When he came on he looked off the pace, not surprising for someone who didn't play a minute in the last 17 league matches of the season due to surgery. Admittedly Southgate seemed like he wanted to play two DM's and its not like after Rice and Phillips we have a massive amount of options so maybe that forced the decision but he clearly wasn't fully fit and was in no way able to start matches
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
    P.L.22/23 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    18,279
    Likes Received:
    19,807
    Before the match I favoured Henderson to start but Rice along with Philips was outstanding. Bringing on players with seconds to go to take penalties was another mistake. Henderson is a regular penalty taker and experience is needed in pressurised situations. Having said that the Italian keeper is a man mountain.As for the game itself after the first twenty minutes or so we gradually played deeper and deeper and once that sets in it is very difficult to turn round. But this was a very young Squad and difficult as it is to take at the moment the future is bright
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
    Admin Moderator Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    5,721
    Likes Received:
    3,831
    Rashford wasn't at his best at the end of the season mainly because he has 3 injuries that need surgery so he can't move with full freedom but I do feel more is being made of it than there is. In an attempt to appease Prima-donna Pogba he was shifted out to the Right. Much like Sterling, he is one of these Right Footed players who just seem to lose the ability to play on the right-hand side of the pitch.

    He played 57 matches for a total minutes of 4146 at club level last season, scored 21 goals and 15 assists. He was involved in a goal every 115 minutes. Compare that to Sterling in a free-scoring City team where he played 49 matches, scored 14 goals and 12 assists. He played a total of 3,703 minutes and was involved in a goal every 142 minutes.

    Saka played 46 matches with 7 goals and 10 assists. He played a today of 3606 minutes and was involved in a goal every 212 minutes.

    Mount played 54 games, scored 9 with 9 assists. He played 4242 minutes in total and was involved in a goal evert 235 minutes.

    Grealish played 27 matches, had 7 goals and 12 assists. He played a total of 2275 minutes and was involved in a goal every 119 minutes

    Foden played 50 games, Scored 15 and assisted 10. He only played 3374 minutes as he came off the bench 14 times and was taken off 10 times meaning he was involved in a goal every 129 mins

    So despite playing with 3 injuries almost the whole season and being forced into a role he doesn't like for much of it he still did more than all of these plus Mount, Grealish and Foden while they might want to roam at times wide are AMC's

    The only player in the squad who can play wide with a better record is Sancho. He Played 38 times, scored 16, assisted with 20. Playing just 2974 minutes that's a goal involvement evert 82minutes
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    11,165
    Likes Received:
    28,765
    Shaw was 100% our player of the tournament. Sterling did well too, but he should've stepped up to take a pen rather that leave it to a kid.

    My biggest issue with his selection last night was the change back to 5 in defence, and the lack of pace up top. Sancho or Saka should have started.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
    Admin Moderator Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L. 20/21 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant P.L. 18/19 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    5,721
    Likes Received:
    3,831
    I think when Sako came on he showed why he shouldn't have started. You get the occasional freak who you can throw onto the biggest stage and they mentally take it in their stride but it's rare and the occasion seemed pretty obviously too big for him the minute he stepped on the pitch. If this was Euro2024 where he should have more experience then it's different but at this point, it was too big an occasion for a 19-year-old

    And again with the back 5, what do people think didn't work with that? We were solid having them always playing in front of our lines with a 5 and when we played with a 4 they were breaking through our lines time and time again. 5 at the back was the right choice, Mount was where the choice was wrong as we needed pace to expose the CB's
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    11,165
    Likes Received:
    28,765
    I thought we were far too deep. In a way, the early goal worked against us. We never looked like threatening their centre backs, Kane was completely isolated.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. WilsdenBantam

    WilsdenBantam Squad Player
    Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L.22/23 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant Euro 2020

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    7,038
    Likes Received:
    15,037
    I thought Rice was the better of the two CDMs all tournament except against Croatia, yet every time it was him who made way and our performances declined when he went off. As for the penalties if the players got to choose the Grealish and Sterling need to have a look at themselves and say why they let a kid who’s never taken a senior penalty and two subs who hadn’t touched the ball go before them. And they’re supposed to be leaders, not leadership behaviour in the slightest. It felt like men v boys in that shootout and one stage it zoomed in on the Italy team and they were smiling and laughing then it zoomed in to Shaw who had sweat dripping off him and looked like he was about to shit himself. Chiellini did a pre match interview and said losing in the final is failure, our lot were just grateful to be there and that includes the managers.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. WilsdenBantam

    WilsdenBantam Squad Player
    Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L.22/23 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant Euro 2020

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    7,038
    Likes Received:
    15,037
    Just seen Grealishes tweet, he wanted to take one but manager decided on what he saw in training, entirely on the manager then.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    11,165
    Likes Received:
    28,765
    Terrible management.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    trevor and WilsdenBantam like this.
  14. Skyebantam

    Skyebantam Impact Sub
    P.L.22/23 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    24,960
    Likes Received:
    28,707
    I share the frustration, but you could easily make a case if we’d been more open and ‘all out attack’, Italy could have been out of sight come full time. That could have suited them even more. I think sometimes we have to accept the opposition’s ability, yes we could have done some things differently, but there’s no guarantee we’d have got a different outcome.
     
  15. Faithful Bantam

    Faithful Bantam Squad Player

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    11,165
    Likes Received:
    28,765
    Wouldn't have needed to be all out attack, just a touch more dynamic, and minded towards exposing their lack of pace at the back.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    trevor likes this.
  16. Tony Wilkinson

    Tony Wilkinson Squad Player
    P.L.22/23 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant Supporter P.L. 20/21 Top 10

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    6,764
    Likes Received:
    8,986
    All is not lost, we are bound to win the Golden Knee Award...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Bantamsteve likes this.
  17. Skyebantam

    Skyebantam Impact Sub
    P.L.22/23 Entrant

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    24,960
    Likes Received:
    28,707
    i get it, we started very well, and you wanted us to kick on a bit, the first half was where we were on top and needed to get a second. Sterling showed he could cause them problems going at them but with him and Kane the service dried up, too many misplaced passes, but we can often struggle a bit imo when we are pressed quickly and give it away cheaply. Any amount of pace won’t patch over how sometimes we give it away too easily. Kane also was very quiet, maybe they kept him on with pens in mind. Maybe at Qatar we’ll get to see more of Grealish, Sancho etc, they have some time between now and then to get more club experience, same with Saka who for his age, I’ve been very impressed with. They all did well though, plenty of reasons to be optimistic, though I’ll admit I am as gutted as anyone else that we couldn’t quite take what was a great opportunity, albeit it was against a very good team.
     
  18. Bantamsteve

    Bantamsteve Impact Sub

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    9,738
    Fully Agree
    Rice along with Shaw were definitely our men of the match
    Not easy for Sancho/ Rashford to come into a pressure cooker atmosphere and be expected to score a penalty with virtually their 1st kick of the match and under no circumstances should sakho been anywhere near taking a penalty that miss could seriously hamper an outstanding career prospect
    I blame Southgate and some of his senior professionals Henderson should have stayed on the pitch to take one Sterling (our tournament leading scorer) should have been told to take one and Shaw has scored penalties in big games before
    Scoring penalties in training bears no resemblance to taking one of that magnitude The so called senior pros should have been on at Southgate to take them not left to young kids undoubtedly talented but not experienced enough for that kind of pressure
     
    trevor, Bronco and Tony Wilkinson like this.
  19. WilsdenBantam

    WilsdenBantam Squad Player
    Qatar 2022 Entrant P.L.22/23 Entrant P.L.23/24 Entrant Euro 2020

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    7,038
    Likes Received:
    15,037
    Can’t blame the senior players, Southgate decided the players who would take a penalty. Confirmed by Grealish, terrible idea imo as it should be who wants to take one as no point someone being great at them in training then a complete wreck when push comes to shove.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. Bantamsteve

    Bantamsteve Impact Sub

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    9,738
    I think Captain Kane would have had some input at some point whether Southgate took any notice is another point
    In my opinion Grealish Henderson and Shaw would have been the part of the first five but strangely enough Maguire who took the best penalty of the night wouldn't it's all about the opinions
    Hopefully we will give the likes of Sakha Sancho Grealish and Calvert Lewin more responsibility at the world cup
    Certainly more than adequate in their positions
     
    trevor likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice