Brexit - 2nd Referendum - The (Bradford City FC) Peoples Vote

i cant but i have some euro's?

 

Interesting conversation tonight with someone who is involved in a level of 'no deal ' preparation. Firstly, the civil service is reaching breaking point trying to do business as usual as well as being seconded from all over to contribute to no deal planning. Secondly, base planning for aspects of no deal is the 2011 volcanic eruptions, when the country was effectively closed for four days.

As my mate said, we are ready for feck all on 29th March because we just don't know.

 

It's going to be an interesting few weeks now May has got backing to play her hand, no movement on the back stop we walk, the EU under pressure
I think commonsense will prevail and an agrement around the backstop when the UK can exit and that wil be the UKs decision ?.

 

It has sure sent an uncomfortable message to the EU. Even the arrogant Macron can't just say his usual 'non'.

IMHO the best negotiating tool we have always had is no-deal. It doesn't mean that's what we necessarily want, but the threat of it is powerful and will be a wake-up call for an intransigent EU.

 

But a backstop that we can walk from isn't a backstop. I cannot see the EU moving on this.
We are caught between a rock & a hard place. The EU won't shift and May won't shift her red lines (which is the only way to get a different deal) because she doesn't want to be the PM that irrevocably splits the Tory Party. She'd rather see us crash out with a disastrous no deal Brexit than that. We're basically fecked.

 

Why do you assume it will be disastrous and that we will be fecked? Many countries seem to be doing just fine without being shackled to the EU protectionist state.

 

If we come out of the EU with no deal it will mean trade tariffs between the EU and the UK, That will mean that the EU have no alternative but to impose a customs border between the Republic and Northern Island a hard border built by them not us as the only way to collect tariffs on trade either way, The only way now to guarantee a non Border in Ireland is weirdly enough to remove the backstop and agree a trade deal as then it will not be needed,

 

If the EU wants a hard border that is up to them. Not our problem as we won't be part of the EU so we won't have to abide by their rulings.

We can make it VERY clear that WE don't want a hard border but if they do then they can set one up. Simple.

 

But the backstop is there to protect the EU in case we cannot agree a deal .The EU is (quite rightly) worried that we will set ourselves up as an offshore tax haven, lower all worker protections, safety and environmental regulations etc (as Rees-Mogg, Boris, Fox and co are itching to do) and undercut them.
They won't drop the backstop. If it comes to a choice between the backstop and a hard border they'll build the border.

 

Then let them build the border.

EU workers rights are rubbish as they stand. Workers deserve WAY better rights and I will vote for a BRITISH political party who promises that, ditto with environmental issues. Why do you assume that we will all of a sudden become a nation of anti environment and anti worker.HHave more faith in your own country and countrymen.

 

Because I don't accept your premise that we are 'shackled' to the EU.
I believe that we get far more out of the EU than we put in.

Being part of the biggest free trade area on the planet is a huge benefit to our economy. It far outweighs the cost of what we pay in.

But also, really importantly, (and usually ignored by Brexiteers) we get the benefit of the trade deals with the rest of the world that the muscle of the EU negotiates on our behalf.
From where I sit, anyone who thinks we can cut better international trade deals on our own than we get via the EU is living in the 1950s or in cloud cuckoo land. We will be taken to the cleaners by all the big international players, who will force us to accept all kinds of conditions and lower standards as the price of a deal. Why do you think Trump is so keen for us to leave the EU? Because he hates the fact that they have the collective economic strength to stand up to the USA and impose higher standards than he likes.
Any kind of Brexit will be economically detrimental to us. But No Deal would be catastrophic. All these companies moving or planning to move their HQs to mainland Europe aren't buying the idea that the dire warnings are just scaremongering. Companies don't make hard-headed decisions to spend millions on relocating unless they are convinced that the post Brexit outlook is dire.

 

Dream on. The EU social chapter is the biggest protection we have for workers rights. Without it the Tories would have decimated them, as they would love to do. It's quite clear that the right of the Tory Party (ie the hard Brexiteers) want to remove EU standards, lower corporation taxes and decimate workers rights. They've made no secret of that.
I'd love to believe that a Labour Party under Corbyn would get in power and raise our rights but that's looking a long long way away at present. And if we get a hard Brexit our economy will be so damaged that any future Labour government would have precious little economic room for manoeuvre.

 

The only thing propping up this minority government is the DUP. They hate the backstop, but do you think they'd support a no deal brexit that could lead to a hard border? Do they want the return of checkpoints being blown up by Irish Nationalists? I doubt it, and I doubt their political voters in Ulster do either. A hard border would cause massive economic problems for the north, quite apart from the terrorism threat.

This is a massive gamble by May. If, as I expect, she comes back in a fortnight with no progress on the backstop then who knows what will happen

 

It may be hard for the north but it would by comparison destroy the Republics economy big time, They would suffer huge unemployment and a massive drop in trade to the biggest customer the UK due to tariffs

 

Workers rights are the worst they have ever been in this country.

Wages at many big companies has DROPPED in real terms MASSIVELY over the last couple of decades. Why? Simple, because big business has welcomed with open arms an army of cheap labour from Eastern Europe and other immigration. They love it! Big bosses salaries have sky-rocketed whilst the working man and woman has had to endure wage increases way less than inflation.

All of this is whilst we are IN the EU!!!!!!!!!!

Then take working hours.

When I was younger we'd arrive at work and have a tea break after a couple of hours. Then we'd have an hour for lunch, and then another tea break in the afternoon. Now, my son gets TWENTY minutes break after working six hours.

If your employees work more than 6 hours a day, you must ensure that they are given a break, the duration of which is specified in the collective agreements or by national law.

(In UK this has been set at "one uninterrupted 20 minute rest break during their working day, if they work more than 6 hours a day. This could be a tea or lunch break."

SOURCE: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/human-resources/working-hours-holiday-leave/working-hours/index_en.htm

That is outrageous!!! An absolute disgrace.

All of this is whilst we are IN the EU!!!!!!!!!!

You are painting a picture of the EU being this heavenly place, but the reality - all over Europe - is that there are massive divides, serious poverty, workers who are treat like slaves (read up on the likes of Amazon in the UK) and a LOT of dissatisfaction in many countries.

I am passionate about workers rights and human rights, but feel that at the moment things under the EU have been very much in the favour of big business. If you don't belief me take a look at the salaries of the CEOs and Chairmen and how dramatically the spread of wealth has moved from the poor into the pockets of the rich.

 

Much of what you say is correct. But the situation would have been much much worse if we were out of the EU.
I'm not pretending that the EU is perfect - it's far from it. But the alternative is far worse.
Globalisation of capitalism has caused the things you complain of, not the EU. You're shooting at the wrong target.
Sick pay, maternity/paternity leave, working hours etc etc are all protected by the EU Social Chapter. The Tories have always hated it (which is why Major's government refused to join it) and cant wait to get rid of what they see as 'unnecessary restrictions on the labour market reducing our competitiveness'. They want a free for all in favour of employers. The EU knows this, which is why they are so suspicious of us becoming another Singapore and undercutting them.

 

You do the UK a disservice.

The EU has always been pro big business and the political elite.

As I mentioned in my earlier post I think employee benefits have got worse under the EU not better.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) looked at employees’ pay across age, gender and earnings last year. Since 2008, the value of men’s pay on average has fallen by just over 7%, compared to a fall of under 2% for women

Only big businesses benefit by allowing unfettered immigration that depresses wages whilst at the same time giving big business an unlimited amount of cheap labour.

Allowing companies to just give 20 minutes break after someone has worked for six hours - a disgrace.

Employers should be forced to pay a fair amount that is dictated by demand and supply and not by having unlimited access to cheap labour.

And when we do have immigration (which we do need - all be it not unfettered) these people deserve a fair level of pay too - not exploitation.

There were many reasons for Major's negotations re the EU Social chapter, but the proof is in the pudding. Workers have not benefited from EU membership, but big business has massively so.

If I remember rightly (you might need to check) UK workers have seen far higher wages rises since the EU referendum than Germany, France, Italy and Spain.

I spend a lot of time in Spain and I can tell you it isn't a workers utopia, far from it, which is why we see a lot of Spanish coming here to work.

You are right about the EU being scared of what the UK might become. If that is the Singapore of Europe then I would take that in a heartbeat rather than to continue to be ruled by these bully boys, whose true motives are becoming clearer by the day.

 

Must be dreadful in Singapore, High wages, Low taxation, Good public services, Great education quality and some of the best healthcare in the world, Why would we want that when we can stay in the EU and continue to decline in all these areas?

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/singapore-among-top-countries-in-un-health-and-living-standards-list
"Singapore scored the highest (98) in occupational risk burden, which indicated that it was best able to protect the labour rights and promote a safe and secure working environment for all workers, including migrant workers, in particular women migrants."

 

If it’s so good, why don’t ya just go live there mate?

 

Expected reply from you Nottsy, A post that shows your ignorance and childlike approach to anything you do not understand or you dislike, The typical reply from someone who is unable to make a contribution to the debate so throws childish comments instead, Sad, really really sad