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Afghanistan

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Aaron Baker, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. Idlebantam

    Idlebantam Squad Player
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    God help America under Sleepy Joe.

    The fall of Afghanistan is the most humiliating foreign policy balls up for America for many a year.

    His bizarre speech yesterday shamed the good folk of America.

    To blame everyone but himself for the surrender to the Taliban was breathtaking. To mock the Afghan army which has incurred massive death toll in defence of its country whilst carrying out U.S policy is unforgivable.

    He also went on to say his hands were tied by Trump's deal with the Taliban, yet he backed the peace deal. Vice president Harris, who is clearly running the show, is equally as bad.
     
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  2. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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  3. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    Some great speeches in Parliament today, mostly from Conservative backbenchers, but that was by far the best.

    Completely noticeable that there was minimal support for the government and pretty much utter disdain for what Biden had said from all corners of the house, especially from those with previous military experience.
     
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  4. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    Tugendhat is an impressive character. He did a couple of tours in Iraq and Afghanistan; promoted to Lt Col in the TA and helped to establish the Aghan Security Council after he left the TA. He's now Chairman of the Fioreign Affairs Select Ctte and well respected on both sides of the House for his knowledge of that part of the middle east. It's a pity that people with his experience weren't listened to by the Govt prior to this mess developing.
     
  5. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    Biden was right and it is the correct policy, Someone has to explain why the US thought and paid for an Afghan army of 300,00 to defend the country when those who know the inside of the Afghan army claim it was only in fact 50,000 strong and on the verge of defeat anyway

    Those MPs making fine speeches saying about going back to help should go back themselves first rather than sending others to die in a country already lost while they make long speeches about what others should do,
     
    #25 trevor, Aug 18, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
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  6. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    The issue seems to be that we have trained the Afghan army in the image of a Western army. Reliant on surveillance, air support and communication infrastructure which is why they could be supported with basically a minimal operational presence. Its worth remembering that no US soldier has died in Afghanistan since February 2020 so all the fighting was actually being done by the local army......which makes Bidens statement all the more disgusting.

    When the US removed those key aspects they were basically back to being an armed militia who were at a disadvantage to the Taliban despite lesser numbers.

    But as a general point you're quite right in that it's easy for politicians to make decisions on war when they're not going. It's why the guys with knowledge of military operations who spoke today were so impressive. Once you have people there you should see it through though rather than leaving the people you're fighting in a stronger position than when you started and leaving people who have supported you to their fate.
     
  7. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    I get all that but the US generals knew the Afghan army was only a sixth of the 300,000 claimed, The Afghan army themselves had no food or ammunition's and had not been paid for weeks, Is it any surprise they took the amnesty offered by the Taliban to change sides, The US has spent around $78 Billion dollars, They supplied the Afghans with the most up to date military weapons that are now in the Taliban hands,
    Biden knew what defeat looked like and was brave enough to tak the right decision, It has saved many many lives

    Read this from the New York Times,
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/world/asia/afghanistan-rapid-military-collapse.html
     
    #27 trevor, Aug 18, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
  8. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    All this is likely true. But the decision is whether to help your allies to see it through or turn and run.

    If you choose to turn and run then own it don't start implying that people who had fought and died under your flag showed cowardice when you're the one turning tail.

    Also make sure you're leaving people who were helping you are going to be okay.

    I actually have no issue with them withdrawing in general (I hope they remember it the next time they want to start chucking their weight around but probably wont) but it's the lack of planning execution and the poor rhetoric that is really annoying to me.
     
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  9. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    We will have to disagree, Bidens agreement to stick to the agreement made with the Taliban by Trump meant they took over virtually peacefully, If he had appeared to go back on that agreement thousand may well have been killied by the Taliban on armed attacks, There is no easy way to withdraw from a country at war but the quicker it is done the better the outcome
     
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  10. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    No he can’t. The President has a very small set of areas he actually has autonomy in, most things have to pass through the houses. And while that is largely the same in the U.K. the big difference is while we vote for an MP and the party who has the most seats in the commons selects the PM, their setup is you vote for a President, you vote for a senator and you vote for a congressman. Congressmen sit in the House of Representatives and there are 435 of them and each sits a 2 year term. How many congressmen each area gets is dependent on the areas population, the bigger the representative area the more you get. The Senate has 100 members as each state gets 2. They serve 6 year terms but they are staggered so you have a third who are in their first two years, a third on years 3 to 4 and the final third on years 5 and 6. Together they then make up Congress. Ultimately it means a President rarely has the power to do what they like as you don’t usually have control of the house and senate to force things through.

    The only option the President has to take unilateral actions is an executive order and those have restrictions for when they can be used. Most of the time it’s a battle for them to get things passed
     
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  11. ConnecticutBantam

    ConnecticutBantam Impact Sub
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    Apparently big issues between the Brits and the US on the group out there. Paras have been going into Kabul to get our people - and other nations citizens. The US apparently worried about upsetting the TB by leaving the airport.
     
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  12. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    All of this is mighty fine and completely true.

    But he can at least try to do the right thing and if he gets bogged down in the complex processes then so be it.

    But just watch these interviews which are 6 weeks apart.





    This is not a President who has been tied in knots by a bureaucratic process. It's a President that has gone down the route that he wanted, underestimated the enemy and is now coming across as uncaring.

    Then this morning he's rather chillingly said..."If there's American citizens left, we're gonna stay to get them all out," I would hope what he actually meant is 'Americal allies" because if they start pulling up the drawbridge before all of our people are out then we might have a massive issue.

    Imagine if other presidents had responded to people falling from planes with "Ah yeah but that was 5 day ago" or said that this type of chaos was inevitable and built in to the decision making a month after saying it wouldn't happen.
     
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  13. SimonW

    SimonW Administrator
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    The thing is we don't actually know that. I would point to the fact that neither the Senate nor the House had any bills proposed to overturn the decision and the reason is two-fold.
    • There are still enough Trumpites to kill any Bill via the attachment of amendments. It's one of the most common way bills are killed by attaching amendments, often on something unconnected that you know the other side can't agree to.
    • The American people were largely in favour of the pull out, especially in Red states so no republican can really break rank but also in many close democratic states meaning many of them to have little choice to cross the aisle especially those in the house and the senates who are in year 5 of their 6 year term as by this point they are having to think about their re-election (in fact even those in year 3 are likely to be having an eye on 2024's re-election run)
    So while it could be what Biden wants it, it could very well be that it's something he like the senate's and congressmen know in the timescale available that they can't get through without impacting other areas and by doing he would hurt his base in swing states. And as politics, even more so in the US is often about the optics and you can't be seen losing, especially when its something the majority of the country will want you to lose on, you have to be see as being on what the public consider the 'right' side and the pull out, even with the mess it is right now is what the majority of Americans are in favour of
     
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  14. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    Well if it's not something he wants he's doing a damn fine job of justifying and doubling down on it. Why are we making excuses when we can hear his actual words, he's not had his arm put up his back.

    Unless the senate and Congress are writing his speeches as well?

    I agree it will go down pretty well in the insular parts of America (I mentioned it was a ll a little bit "Little Englander" but that's the actual worry when so much of our policy is intrinsically tied to their capabilities. An MP said on TV this morning that Trump was overtly 'America First' but Biden is actually coming across as 'America Only'.
     
  15. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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  16. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    Not good is it although the accusation of lack of support in the preceding weeks is more of a concern to me than the actual phonecall. I'm not sure how much difference a phonecall to a minister in a failing/failed government would have made in reality but even the perception that they're not doing everything possible is a negative.

    In the short term I think there's probably more important things to focus on but it will definitely be worthy of investigation.
     
  17. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    It's the same scenario as Johnson buggering off for a fortnight to sort out his divorce when he should have been convening Cobra and planning for the inevitable arrival of Covid to the UK
    If you accept one of the most senior posts in government you have to accept that when shit happens, as it inevitably does sometimes, then you cancel your holiday and get back to personally leading your department. It comes with the job.
     
  18. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    Slightly disagree about the COBR meeting as the PM doesn't always chair them (but it does give a window into how serioulsy it was being viewed)

    However in this case you're right. Arguments can be made that after 18 months of pandemic you don't always have to be in the same location to get on with your work and that he was back in Whitehall for the Monday morning but overall it's not a good look to be on holiday while such major events are happening.

    The focus on the single phone call by the media might actually be letting Raab off the hook a little bit though. From a common sense point of view I can't see what difference it would have actually made given the situation his Afghan opposite number would have been in. The wider accusations of sleepwalking through the crisis are much more damning.

    It is a shame because Raab is undoubtedly one of the smartest people in Parliament from an academic/experience point of view but he also comes across a bit of a sociopath!
     
  19. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    Like half the present cabinet!
     
  20. Idlebantam

    Idlebantam Squad Player
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    Another embarrassing press conference with Sleep Joe yesterday.

    He claimed that Al Qaeda had been destroyed and had no presence left in Afghanistan. He also claimed that no Americans had been harmed trying to reach Kabul airport and the friendly chaps from the Taliban had helped them.

    You could almost sense Vice President Harris squirming behind him.

    Not long after the conference, a White House spokesman contradicted both those claims.

    Sleepy also thought the capital of Qatar was called Daho, not Doha.

    There have also been claims that when Bin Laden was alive he ordered Al Qaeda not to kill Sleepy Joe should he ever become President, as he viewed him as such a weak link that it would benefit them enormously.
     

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