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£15 an hour to flip burgers

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Rogered Tart, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. River_City_Bantam

    River_City_Bantam Squad Player
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    You could add to that various other -isms as well... an unfair distribution of income results more often than not. And so we return to the questions of what would be a fair distribution, and how do we achieve it. Shaw's solution is as problematic as the other options he discusses, and we haven't really got any further in the 90 years since.

    Capital being invested out of the country resulting in that money not being used in-country for the country's benefit; factories moving out of the country resulting in cheaper products being imported back into the same country and undercutting the remaining in-country manufacturers making them not viable; it all sounds so present-day, doesn't it? Shaw was criticising these behaviours 90 years ago! I expect there must have been others, too, but as it's his book I'm reading, his thoughts keep coming to mind.

    RCB
     
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  2. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    Which of course is why certain individuals and companies are petrified by staying in the EU and the UK Govt having to fully implement Directive 2016/1164, the anti tax avoiudance directive. And it's less about investing elsewhere but more about putting the divis paid to their owners out of sight.

    As a bit of 'fun', one of my colleagues in our forensic unit, followed the money of several large UK companies, including JCB, Dyson and Wetherspoons. The chain of dividends ended in various British offshore tax havens and after that point could no longer be traced. ATAD would have put a stop to those practices in every British overseas territory including those tax havens in other jurisdictions. Heaven only knows where those dividends ended up but one thing is clear, it isn't somewhere in the UK!
     
    Allotment Bantam and Hoochy-Min like this.
  3. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    Interesting what you say about globalisation and investors chasing the cheapest country to produce goods, It could be said that the purpose of tariffs was to protect a countries factories and employment from cheap goods from abroad, Globalisation and free trade is great for business and great for profits as companies seek the cheapest labour worldwide for example as in parts of the EU and Asia but for ordinary working folk it lowers the wages and makes them surplus, Now as a craftsman you are not only in competition with the factory down the road but with the whole emerging nations desperate for employment and foreign currency with only one winner in a free trade area
    For ordinary people tariffs are your friend and the enemy of those who would profit at your expense
     
  4. ConnecticutBantam

    ConnecticutBantam Impact Sub
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    @River_City_Bantam@River_City_Bantam

    RCB some great posts on this thread.

    "Factories moving out of the country resulting in cheaper products being imported back into the same country and undercutting the remaining in-country manufacturers making them not viable." really interesting quote. Especially in terms of Brexit/NAFTA (Trump). Not wanting to derail the thread... But you can't really have it both ways, as Trump wants. If you bring manufacturing back into the country the price of consumer goods will rise. If you leave it to importing goods then domestic goods are going to get undercut.

    Going back to the original topic of discussion the minimum wage. Connecticut is planning on raising the minimum wage $1 every year for the next 5 years. Taking the minimum wage from $10 at the start of 2019 to $15 in 2023. It is possible but it would have to be across the board.
     
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  5. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    It is a stark choice sometimes, Support globalisation and free trade and cheap imports and be out of work and not be able to afford goods, or support tariffs and have higher prices but be in work to help pay for them
     
  6. abbomf

    abbomf Emergency Backup

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    I thought I'd made that clear, Finland.

    It is an interesting concept and one that I think that I agree with but only for those of a specialist skill or of a creative bent. There is no point in giving more money to those who cannot (for one reason or another) be "prodcutive". For instance if society invests in (bets on) these skilled/artistic/creative people, then some, freed from the worries of having to house, feed & clothe themselves, would no doubt flourish and produce, how much does that one Sheeran guy pay in tax?

    I watched a close friend return to the UK and try to get a job, the hoops he was made to jump through, were harder than my job & absolutely counter productive.
     
  7. abbomf

    abbomf Emergency Backup

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    There has always, since inter country trade first started, been globalisation, free trade & cheap imports!
     
  8. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    The Finnish trial was more like Universal Credit than a Basic Income as the trial only included those that were unemployed
     
  9. River_City_Bantam

    River_City_Bantam Squad Player
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    It's an area where you can just about find a positive for every negative, or vice versa... In general I'd say free or at least freer trade is good, but there are a lot of kinks to be worked out before each side gets to enjoy the benefits. An example here is that part of the Canada-Europe deal which lets Canada send more beef to Europe. Except, of course, it can't get close to the allowable limit yet because of different standards for feed/additives/medications etc. Thus more Canadian ranchers are trying to get their ranches and herds certified to European standards, which means changing around various aspects of their procedures, and then find there are not enough suitably-qualified veterinarians who can certify that a herd now meets European standards.
    On the other hand, tariffs and associated supply management are absolutely vital here for the dairy and egg industries; without those, America in particular could flood the country with their excess production and devastate that sector of the farming community.

    I wonder how long the bits of the world that provide cheap labour will continue to do so -- as the standards rise in those places, and the wages rise, there should come a point when it is no longer attractive, or as attractive, to send manufacturing abroad.

    RCB
     
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  10. River_City_Bantam

    River_City_Bantam Squad Player
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    Ta! There's another consideration when moving manufacturing back in-country -- does the physical plant needed still exist? A one-time acquaintance, who ran a ladies clothing store, once talked about a Montreal firm with whom she'd dealt. They made good clothes, but one day decided to move the production offshore; more than that, they sold all their machinery too. So even if they wanted to bring the manufacturing back, they'd have to start from scratch. To how many other factories would that apply?

    Minimum wage here (Ontario) is $14/hr. (It was supposed to rise to $15 this year, but the new provincial government cancelled/postponed that.) Assuming you worked a full week at that rate, 36.5 hours, and deducting three weeks for holidays/sick days, you'd gross just over $25,000. Federal and provincial income taxes would come to some 20%, but you'd lose less than that thanks to various deductions and credits. Overall livable, but money will be tight.

    RCB
     
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