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Tracey feckin Brabin

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Tony Wilkinson, May 9, 2021.

  1. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    But none of these are because of the system though - it's a misplaced analysis. You are quite right about the 1951 result though but the fact you need to go back 70 years shows it's not actually a symptomatic advantage one way or another, it's a fluke result and the foible of the system that can work both ways.

    It's the simple fact that the right can basically organise themselves into a single party but the "left" can't. There's a relatively narrow window of being acceptably right of centre but being left of centre swings all the way from Corbyn to Blair. The failing of this analysis is that you're trying to say that a vote for Blair and Corbyn (or Lib Dem and Green) should be grouped together as "left" but there's no actual reason for that, in some respects they are more diverse than grouping Blair and Cameron together. You - and the Guardian - are trying to put a multi variant analysis into just two silos, with a strict cut off point between left and right but that's not the reality.

    So ,

    1) Only if you use the flawed grouping system and the fact that the "left" can not workably pull themselves into a single party is part of the reason why they're unelectable. It's not a failing of the system that they keep falling out and dividing.

    2) This isn't symptomatic of one one party though. It will always work that way in terms of the victor. (2005 - 26,905 votes to elect a Labour MP, 44.368 to elect a Conservative, 96, 540 to elect a Lib Dem) Whoever wins will have similar stats.

    3) You're only looking at half the equation. it wasn't Johnson's increase in votes that caused the result. It was Corbyn's 8% decrease in votes that created the gap. When that happens you don't really need to see much of an increase to gain seats.

    I think every government this country has ever had has had more people vote against them then for them. That's how a multi party system works but this idea that the system is stacked against the Labour party or the general left is deeply flawed. The flaw comes from the disparate nature of the left, not from the system itself.

    On the wider point you're right that PR works better than FPTP in reflecting the will of the people, however it creates weaker government and is therefore much better for electing single individuals such a mayors, etc, rather than assemblies of people.
     
    #41 Aaron Baker, May 14, 2021
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  2. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    A good example is our most recent GE. The Conservative Party polled just over 43% of the popular vote yet over 56% of the seats. The 'losers' weren't however the Labour Party (they polled 32% of the vote for 31% of the seats) but rather the two main minor opposition parties - the Greens and the LibDems - togther they polled 14% of the votes for 2% of the seats. That's hardly a ringing endorsement for democracy.

    It demonstrates why the two main parties want to maintain the status quo and the LibDems and Greens support some kind of PR.

    Only a few years prior to that, the results of the 2015 GE were more exaggerated. In that year the Conservatives polled 36% of the vote for 51% of the MPs. On the other hand, UKIP polled 13% of the votes and didn't elect a single MP. Irrespective of anybody's views of UKIP, that's patently wrong and shouldn't happen in a modern democracy.
     
  3. Nottsy

    Nottsy Squad Player

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    Not awol, I do tend to not read many threads though, admittedly. I could literally predict the way a thread will pan out by the subject anyway. It’s all become very tedious.
     
  4. YungNath

    YungNath Impact Sub

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    I'm touched by your concern but I have a life that isn't Bantam Talk unfortunately
     
  5. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    there are very few proven cases of it especially compared to the number of votes cast which is what he will mean. How you prove it is another matter but until it is then it is just hearsay
     
  6. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    You've got to live and work in places like Bradford to understand how it works.
     
    Bronco likes this.
  7. YungNath

    YungNath Impact Sub

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    still not substantiated or proven
     
  8. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    It goes on. Not to a point where it has a detrimental effect nationally but it does happen.
     
  9. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    Think one area of concern was that in certain sections of the community they were asked to do postal votes, These were then collected up and filled in and sent back
     
    Bronco likes this.
  10. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    The asking for ID wouldn’t stop the possibility of this happening though as ID wouldn’t be asked when securing a postal vote
     
  11. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    Just heard a piece with the numbers in from 2019, so General, Local and European elections.
    There were 595 allegations of voter fraud that ended up with 4 convictions and 2 cautions
     
  12. Offcomedun

    Offcomedun Important Player
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    Exactly. Voter ID is a solution for a non-existing problem, as the Tories well know.
    Introducing voter ID is nothing more than a blatant piece of voter suppression, straight out of the Republican Party playbook.
     
    Allotment Bantam and Dennis like this.

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