Brexit

No that's the deal Corbyn is about to offered the EU, France will be delighted Italy too .

 

I said 12 months as that is the length between party conference and if I remember correctly Labour rules say manifesto is agreed at conference unless it is an unplanned one when it is down to the leader so do it. That is one reason JC doesn’t want it to go full term as he will not want conference to set it.

 

That is not brexit Cameron said outside number 10, it's a once in a lifetime vote, you will never get another referendum, if you do vote leave it will mean leaving the EU, Single Market and the Customs Union, the Prime Ministers words, no getting away from how it was presented to the electorate.

 

What he actually said was any Tory deal should go back to the public, he has refused to say if a deal that he agreed would also have to go to a confirmatory public vote.

 

You can argue until you're blue in the face about what does and doesn't constitute Brexit in your view.
But the simple fact is that Corbyn wants us to leave the EU. He always has and he still does. You may not like the deal he wants to attach to it but, if he gets his way, we will not be a member state of the EU.

 

Its not just my opinion Steve, I'm quoting facts, if you havent seen that Cameron speach you must be the only person in Britain who hasnt I'll try and dig it out for you.
If the man who gave us the chance to vote then tells everyone of the consequences of a leave vote , he made it quite straight forward.
Corbyn as the party leader does not want to brexit because Labour now they say they a remain party, hes a manipulative liar.

 

Watching GMB with Farage saying he will join forces with Boris on the condition we leave the EU with no strings attached in other words No Brexit.
When questioned about the present situation and Boris not wanting No Deal taking off the table he said he had seen the letter sent to the EU from our PM and it said if the EU took the back stop out he would accept the new deal.
I posted months back In my opinion dropping the back stop would be adequate to get the majority of MPs to vote in favour, I posted I didnt think Boris wanted to leave without a deal but without his No Deal card he could not get any better deal from the EU.

https://bantamtalk.com/index.php?threads/brexit-2nd-referendum-the-bradford-city-fc-peoples-vote.1653/page-4#post-146065

 

The problem was the weakness of May when she accepted the terms of the agreement from the EU, Had we at that stage insisted on agreeing a trade deal before we signed article 50 instead of accepting that the political agreement and terms of leaving be agreed first, Had we insisted on bi-lateral talks or doing the trade deal first then the backstop would not have been needed, May was weak and at heart a remainer and the country is now paying the price of that stupidity of accepting the EU leaving agenda , Boris is getting a lot of stick but repairing the damage of the previous prime minister is a near on hopeless task when coupled with MPs who will not accept the referendum result and a Labour party determined to wreck as much damage as possible

 

You're completely missing my point Dave. I fully understand what you're saying about what Cameron promised and what you regard as being proper Brexit.
But you have said that Corbyn is a liar because he has reneged on his previous statements about wanting to leave the EU. That's just incorrect.
Corbyn does want to leave the EU. He hasn't changed his mind about that. He doesn't want No Deal, or to leave the single market. But he wants us out of the club.
The membership and many Labour MPs want us to remain, but that is not Labour Party policy. They are still sitting on the fence because the leadership, especially Corbyn, wants us to leave with a deal - but not May's deal.
Corbyn is still a Brexiteer. Just not your sort of, leave at any cost, Brexiteer.

 

May had no choice. We had no leverage. Our only potential gambits were to threaten No Deal and/or refuse to pay the outstanding sums we'd already committed to. Neither of those were ever going to cut any ice with the EU. They'd have just waved us off into the sunset.
May made things worse by introducing her red lines, which made any negotiation impossible. But, fundamentally, the EU had the whip hand from the outset. We could stamp our feet as much as we liked but nothing was ever going to get the EU to make concessions on their core essentials. If we wanted free trade and seamless customs then we had to accept free movement - simple as. It's the great Brexiter delusion to believe otherwise. We started 'negotiations' from a position of fundamental weakness - we need a deal much more than they do. All the Brexiter bluster in the world hasn't, and cannot, change that.

 

Corbyns stance on leaving the EU is whatever his boss Kier Starmer and Seamus Milne decide,

 

The fact is that May never even attempted to change the agenda sent by the EU, She fell in to the trap they set for her and she did not even attempt to change it, It was not EU bullying that made her sign a terrible agenda it was her own weakness and stupidity, At the time there was no pressure to agree such an agreement and we should have at least attempted to change it more in our favour

 

How am I missing the point when you say yourself Corbyn does not want to leave the single market, the EU aren't going to allow the UK to trade with other EU members without restrictions or tariffs, why would they allow the UK to do that without being a full member.
Talk this morning in The Telegraph that there is a legal way of getting round todays vote on the general election :
Boris Johnson has drawn up plans to “sabotage” any Brexit extension without breaking the law, the Telegraph has learnt.

It means Monday’s vote on a general election is the “last chance” for MPs to block a no-deal Brexit, the Government believes.
On and on it goes.

 

You are missing the point because being in the single market is not the same as being in the EU. It is possible to be outside the EU but still in the single market. That would require concessions that you don't like (eg accepting free movement) but, whether you like it or not, we would still have left the EU. We would not be a member state.
This is what Corbyn wants. He wants us to no longer be a member of the EU, but still be in the single market and some kind of customs alignment. So he is not a remainer - he wants us to leave.
Whether what he wants is achievable, or desirable, is a separate issue. The simple fact is, he wants us to leave the EU. I can't put it any clearer than that.

 

May never stood a chance, pretty much the sacrificial lamb. Weak in some ways but ultimately the damage had already been done. Just remember, negotiations aren’t done for the benefit of us mere plebs, they are for the filthy rich with their vested interests of which there are many. Corbyn now holds some of the top cards, he’s just doesn’t know how to play them. A strong Labour party with some modicum of principle would wipe the floor with Johnson and his followers, a shame Labour are always in self destruct mode these days because now is their time to take hold of the poisoned chalice.

 

I agree that she should not have triggered Article 50 without first having discussions with the other parties and seeing if there was a degree of Brexit (Norway+ etc) that could have achieved a Commons majority. The referendum did not define what Leave meant so there was wriggle room at that stage and most (not all) of the public would probably have accepted some kind of soft Brexit at that stage, which the EU would likely have agreed to.
But the sticking point was free movement of labour which, of course, is what many people voted for Brexit to stop. May is obsessed with immigration, as her disastrous tenure as Home Secretary demonstrated. Once she jumped the gun, triggering Article 50 with no parliamentary discussion, and laid down her red lines, any scope for manoeuvre with the EU was killed stone dead. They would never accept privileged access to their single market without free movement of labour and we had no leverage to make them do so. We need a trade deal much more than they do. No amount of foot stamping about No Deal or witholding payments changes that.
If May hadn't gone in gung ho with her red lines then a deal might have been more doable. Once she did that the EU could see that scope for compromise was virtually non existent so the two year transition period would likely end without an agreement. So it put the backstop in place to protect against that and nothing we can do will remove that, except withdrawal of the red lines - which is what Corbyn hopes to do in the unlikely event that he gets a Commons majority in the forthcoming general election.

 

Funny that. Keir Starmer is a confirmed Remainer. Yet Labour does not have a policy to support Remain and Corbyn is still hoping to leave the EU with a deal if he gets to be PM. So it seems to me that it is Corbyn's view that is prevailing, not Starmer's.
Milne I agree with. The Labour equivalent of Dominic Cummins. Nasty individual who holds far too much sway.

 

The sad thing in all this was that had we agreed to be in the customs union and single market we would have left by now, On the basis that included was a clause that after we had left with the agreement terms met that at that stage we could negotiate a free trade agreement to replace single market etc thus allowing us freedom to strike other deals with other countries, The stupidity and damage that May and her chief remain negotiator Ollie Robbins have done to this country cannot be underestimated

 

Labour have all but confirmed they will campaign to remain at the next election, This is Starmers decision with his supporters, Corbyn will do as he is told, Privately I agree he is more in favour of leaving but publicly he will do as Starmer dictates,

The latest policy it seems is to take over negotiations, Agree a new deal with the EU and then campaign to reject the deal they have negotiated and campaign for remain, You could not make it up,