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City Managers Records and achievements

Discussion in 'City Talk' started by Rogered Tart, Aug 1, 2020.

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  1. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    Don't mind a rumour here and there but it's descended into the micro analysis of McCalls record as manager.
     
    #1 Rogered Tart, Aug 1, 2020
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  2. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    I have always been anxious about Stuart McCall’s returns to the club. I was worried in 1998, as he had been injured whilst playing in Scotland and following his first stint, then in my mind he was already a legend. However his return was followed by an epic spell.

    In respect of the first management spell, then I think the vast majority were in favour. I have to admit I was sceptical about his second return. However he got us to the play off final and with the Billy Clarke miss and their ‘off side goal’, then it wasn’t to be. Working with an owner who has decided they don’t want you at the club, who is in effect undermining you must be exceptionally difficult.

    The ‘end of the second spell’, started in earnest on 6th January 2108, the Hendrie ‘gate’ defeat at Yeovil. I understand there were serious issues between Rahic and not only McCall but members of the team. The season then imploded, with Rahic not strengthening. When McCall was sacked, City were 6th, despite a ‘Championship’ manager taking over (Grayson), the same players ended up 11th, so the team actually deteriorated.

    McCall’s statistics during his second spell was an impressive win rate (and better before 6/1/2018).

    McCall 2016/2018 = 45.83%
    Paul Jewell = 39.32%
    Chris Kamara = 35.71%
    Trevor Cherry = 41.2%
    Jimmy Wheeler = 34.78%
    Peter O’Rourke = 41.05%

    So which ever way you dress it up, the facts are what they are.


    upload_2020-8-1_19-50-39.png

    upload_2020-8-1_19-51-19.jpeg
    upload_2020-8-1_19-52-19.png
     

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    #2 Bigrod, Aug 1, 2020
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  3. Dennis

    Dennis Captain
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    Impressive statistics. SMc's win rate was better than Parky's, Kamara's and Jewell's. And yet they achieved promotion for our club whilst unfortunately Stuart couldn't do it. It's a shame that SMc's win rate wasn't converted into a promotion.

    But that's probably because promotion isn't based on win rate; it's based on accumulating more points than other clubs and if necessary, beating them in a play-off. For that more balanced view and to see how promotions are earned, there's another dimension and that is a manager's losing rate. That's where Stuart falls down. His losing rate was worse compared to others who were more successful than him in terms of promotions.
     
    #3 Dennis, Aug 1, 2020
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  4. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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    just shows the value for scratching round for a point when not playing well
     
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    #4 Park bantam, Aug 1, 2020
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  5. Fordy117

    Fordy117 Just call me Mr Flip-Flop!
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    Agree.

    As I said when we go on a losing run then McCall struggles.

    He disappointed me the other night with we can like this, we can play like that. It's like no have a game plan and it's easy to understand that when it goes wrong why McCall struggles.

    Let's hope it doesn't go wrong.
     
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    #5 Fordy117, Aug 1, 2020
  6. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    Actually in respect of Kamara and Parky, it was purely down to winning the important Play Off final. In reality that is all that separated them. We have to accept that in 2016, Parky failed at the first hurdle of the Play Off’s.
     
    #6 Bigrod, Aug 1, 2020
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  7. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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    One of the few games that counted he lost
     
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    #7 Park bantam, Aug 1, 2020
  8. XCIV_Bantam

    XCIV_Bantam Squad Player
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    Im sorry fella but you are getting confused here buddy.

    Hes managed many clubs. Hes only got the the triple at one club once. Doing this once does not disprove my point about pep needing time at multiple clubs. You saying it took him one year to achive his record breaking season only proves my point!

    I honestly don't know how your day has been but you have been salty and frankly toxic for no reason. Hope your day is going well!
     
    #8 XCIV_Bantam, Aug 1, 2020
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  9. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    To get as close as McCall did at Wembley yet it is deemed as failure in the eyes of some is all down to opinion i guess. I didn't want to get dragged into this debate. I do believe it was a lazy appointment but not to the detriment of McCalls potential as a manager which some people have. One gilt edged chance missed in a winner takes all match of few genuine chances is not failure, well not in my eyes. To have bettered 19 other managers in the division to get us to the playoff final should be viewed as a big positive, not derided as some utter failure.
    That one chance of Billy Clarke's is the difference between a promotion on your record or a fruitless season. That doesn't make you a bad manager, the opposite in fact.
     
    #9 Rogered Tart, Aug 1, 2020
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  10. Feats Don't Fail Me Now

    Feats Don't Fail Me Now Fringe Player

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    #10 Feats Don't Fail Me Now, Aug 1, 2020
  11. Bigrod

    Bigrod Captain
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    #11 Bigrod, Aug 1, 2020
  12. River_City_Bantam

    River_City_Bantam Squad Player
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    I have to disagree with you on this point. Here's the records (League matches only) of our managers from Stuart's first spell onwards:

    upload_2020-8-2_0-26-2.png

    And here's the bottom, and thus the good end, of the losing % list: (again, League matches only). Games played - WDL - and % WDL

    upload_2020-8-2_0-27-33.png

    Kamara's losing % was 39.39%, and Jewell's, 39.05%.

    Granted, Staurt's not-as-impressive first-spell numbers are more than compensated for by the impressive second-spell numbers; it remains to be seen what effect the third spell will have. But even so, Stuart's first-spell losing % was still better than that of K. and J. So I don't think this particular stat can be used against Stuart.

    RCB
     
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    #12 River_City_Bantam, Aug 2, 2020
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  13. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Impact Sub

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    I appreciate all of your work on this in response to what Dennis said but my personal objection to a focus on win/loss rates when trying to judge a manager is more simple.......they don't take into account objectives.

    You could have a 50% win rate and fail or you could have a 30% win rate and massively overachieve.

    In every season here McCalls objective has been promotion, he's been expected to be towards the top of the league. You would therefore expect a good win rate.

    Kamara, Jewell and Parkinson actually achieved something.....promotion....and therefore had seasons where their primary objective was just to stay up in the new league. All of which they actually achieved. Your win rate will obviously suffer when you're trying to consolidate at a new level.

    Weirdly, focusing purely on win/loss rate is actually praising Stuart for never actually getting promotion. He's never had to adjust to a new level and had his win rate suffer as a result.

    That's why win/loss rate is a meaningless stat in isolation.
     
    #13 Aaron Baker, Aug 2, 2020
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  14. Park bantam

    Park bantam Regular Starter
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    Parky s figures are heavily influenced by the fact he took over one of our worst sides ever which meant he was fighting a relegation battle Stuart took over a side in his second spell that was very solid
     
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    #14 Park bantam, Aug 2, 2020
  15. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    Figures of which manager got this percentage or that percentage are interesting but totally beyond the point,
    The only measurement of any value is what did they actually achieve,
     
    #15 trevor, Aug 2, 2020
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  16. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    As a slightly tenuous link to the managers records at the club, taking a look at the clubs season history is grim reading. Apart from 82-90 where we were promoted from 4th division to 2nd division, the Richmond years and Parkys promotion and the subsequent playoff years it literally is a club there to make up the numbers.
     
    #16 Rogered Tart, Aug 2, 2020
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  17. Captain Grumpy

    Captain Grumpy Impact Sub
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    Win percentage is fine, but do you know who has by far the best win percentage as England manager? Well it's Fabio Cappello by some distance and I don't see the FA clamouring to get him back.
     
    #17 Captain Grumpy, Aug 2, 2020
  18. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    Football is a game of fine margins which ultimately determine success or failure. Yet the best football i've seen this club play in the 40 years of supporting them was under Terry Dolan who if measuring by success achieved nothing. And history shows he nearly achieved the dream of first division football in a league where we were punching above our weight after nearly always been in the bottom division since the end of world war two.
     
    #18 Rogered Tart, Aug 2, 2020
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  19. trevor

    trevor Squad Player
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    League positions and in which division is a measure of achievement, Dolan just missing out on promotion by a whisker was an achievement but he still failed to achieve that promotion where others with a poorer percentage actually achieved promotion, Measurement by win percentages are dependent on to many variables to judge accurately a managers performance where promotion or relegation etc are a tangible event
     
    #19 trevor, Aug 2, 2020
  20. Rogered Tart

    Rogered Tart Regular Starter
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    Oh i agree, Parkinson had a huge slice of luck that Dolan didn't get in that Exeter completely self imploded otherwise that would ultimately have been a season without playoff football. Also Dolan was playing in a division where the teams were of a much higher standard with a very small squad of players. The variables rarely get a mention, people are fixated by win percentages or the like. An example being Leeds 2 seasons ago where they should really have gone up, they were arguably the best side in footballing terms yet a season was determined by a second half fifteen minutes of madness in the playoff second leg.
     
    #20 Rogered Tart, Aug 2, 2020
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