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Discussion in 'City Talk' started by Ricky, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    I don’t know anything about their club. I couldn’t even tell you who owns it or if it is fans based or private, or what funds raised by the fans you are talking about.
     
  2. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    Yep but more long term. So you might save up one year to go on a big holiday the following year. So the year you go you run a deficit but you have the funds to cover it from saving up before hand, or putting it on credit and paying it off the following year
     
    Onside and RonnieBrown like this.
  3. Fools Gold

    Fools Gold Squad Player

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    Yeah nonsense
     
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  4. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    So we can cross that off the rumour list
     
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  5. Mike Hunt

    Mike Hunt Impact Sub

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    Since when have facts stopped an incorrect rumour?
     
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  6. Dratsab taf

    Dratsab taf Squad Player

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    Yeah but was it unsubstantiated or fact
     
    Storck likes this.
  7. Rogered Tart

    ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant

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    That’s not correct. Onside was one of the most positive posters on here and C & B until she saw the light. I think she is right to be worried about the direction the club is going in.
     
  8. banbrotam

    banbrotam Impact Sub

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    But if they have a three-year plan, can we at least wait three years before deciding it's failed

    There is nothing confirmed to say that they won't or will spend. Yet vitually every fan has already decided it's the former
     
    Inspector and City-since-67 like this.
  9. Dennis

    Staff Member Moderator Supporter

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    That's not correct. It might be the case when talking about household stuff but not the case in a business context. Households tend not to run themselves using a P&L account!

    I'll have to apologise in advance for the length of my explanation but it can't be addressed in soundbites!

    The starting point is that when a business says it has a deficit (as Rahic recently said and Lawn had said on several occasions), it doesn't necessarily mean the club has no cash. It's simply a more acceptable way to some of describing the company as running at a loss (as against making a profit). And it is usually applied to the entire accounting year. Thus when Rahic was quoted as saying the club was running a deficit of £700k, he was slightly misquoted when he actually said 'we are expecting a deficit in this year of £700k' ie at the end of the season we will have made a loss of £700k. And just for completeness, a loss is made in a season when the costs attributable to that season are more than the income attributable to that season. I'll return to the bits in italics shortly.

    Having no cash or running an overdraft is very different to running a deficit and can be far more serious in the short term. If any business doesn't have cash or cannot access cash (say an overdraft from the bank or equity or loans from its owners) or cannot generate cash from selling its assets to pay its bills or employees' salaries, then it won't stay in business very long! There are many examples of businesses which were profitable but went bankrupt because of cash flow. Carillion probably falls into this category. Equally there are big businesses which made losses over many years but were able to stay alive because they had ready access to cash to support then until they became sustainable. The likes of Facebook and Microsoft are great examples of this second category. As the mantra goes 'cash is king'!

    Back to the comments in italics. the finance people in businesses go to great lengths to equate costs with revenues on a comparable basis and for a defined period, usually a 12 month period. Thus as an example, in our case, we receive season ticket income as cash before the season to which it relates. It all shows as income for the coming season since it relates to that season but as cash as it's received and stuck in the bank account, ie most of it is in the previous season. On the other hand, when we bought Wyke for £250k in Jan 2017 on a 21/2 year contract, and let's say for ease of argument that the cash for the transfer was paid to Carlisle on the day he left them. At the time that would have affected our own cash on the day it left the bank account. It would have put a huge dint in our bank account on that one day. But in terms of impacting the company's profit (or if you like deficit), the £250k is being spread (amortised is the way accountants refer to it) over the period of Wyke's contract since that's the period he'd be expected to play for us. In this example, in his first 6 months, it would have impacted on the deficit (or loss) by £50k, significantly less than the impact on cash flow.

    I agree it's not always straightforward and it's therefore very easy for either people to misunderstand the situation or for others to deliberately confuse the issue. Small companies such as the club are very prone to cash flow issues and that's far more important in the short term than having a deficit. It is however quite worrying when clubs offer early bird discounts to encourage fans to part with their cash and for it to end up in the club's bank account before it might be needed. We've done this for years however and it isn't something which the new owners have suddenly invented. It does demonstrate however that the club has a continuing issue with cash flow and therefore needs to do this. It certainly creates breathing space on cash flow which would otherwise either have to be funded by an overdraft or more capital from the owners until unexpected income from a say a cup run or selling a player or cutting its costs has been delivered. Or if you like, it's the cash from cup runs or selling players for more money which helps the club to develop.

    Apologies for the length of this reply but this is a very important to explain this in a little depth in our club's situation which hasn't had and doesn't have the benefit of a sugar daddy willing to routinely put extra cash into the club to sustain it. It still shows how the money raised from the LC run or the sale of Wells has had such a positive effect on us over the past few years and equally why our loss to Yeovil caused such a furore.
     
    #229 Dennis, Apr 29, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
  10. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    @Dennis@Dennis

    Do you think part of the cash flow regarding the season tickets being sold early is due to the fact that it has happened for so many years each year part of the income has already been spent? Thus the need at the end of the season? It only takes one season for it to be dipped into early and that then rolls on year on year until we can some how do without the extra money at the end of the season?

    Do we actually sell our early bird deals much earlier than other clubs?
     
  11. Ricky

    Ricky Squad Player

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    That would explain why in Feb I was told as were others on here that next season ST sales part of the money would be used for this season to see us through
     
    Bronco likes this.
  12. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    But my question would be has this happened every season for a good few years? Or is it new? If it is new then it is an issue, if it has become the norm then not so much. But if that was the case why not put them on sale earlier than usual to get the cash in sooner?
     
  13. Dennis

    Staff Member Moderator Supporter

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    I do. As I said in my earlier post, this has been happening for years and I don't believe that doing it again marks a major change in our financial fortunes. Once we'd joined that particular roundabout, it's very difficult to get off again.

    It does however illustrate that we don't have much spare capacity in our finances. To spend anything above our break-even as JR used to call it (or if you prefer, sustainable as Rahic uses) level means either gambling on another lucrative cup run, selling our only saleable assets (of which there are few), cutting our cost base even further or attracting additional investment into the club. None of that heralds a great future for me. And nor does it signal any fundamental change in how ML and JR used to run the club compared to how R&R do now.
     
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  14. Storck

    Storck Regular Starter

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    Totally agree but it doesn't seem to be anything new.
     
  15. pns1945

    pns1945 Impact Sub

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    If there is an offer in the air, it is reasonable to assume that both parties would benefit from an early conclusion. It remains a worry that balancing the books relies on things out of our control, so there has to be an injection of capital to offset this recurrence. The past history of asset stripping, lease and buy back options, has surely run its course and I have doubts that any single person from the previous regime would be able to retake control and meet the investment profile the Club needs.
     
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  16. Stafford Bantam

    Staff Member Moderator Supporter

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    GR put them on sale 25 years early!!!
     
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    BoingBoing, Dennis, Nick_W_ and 2 others like this.
  17. Bronco

    ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter

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    I would think that would very much be what the current owners are asking for the club, if they want to get their total investment back that might not be acceptable to the new bidders, similar to a house sale, you get a valuer around to give you a ball park figure for the value of your property but that valuation means very little if the buyer doesn't think your property is worth that figure, and as we stand I'm not sure which party would be in the driving seat, the seller or the purchaser ?.
    I'd have the new purchasers in the driving seat, as I'm sure the noises coming out of Valley Parade are not of a happy ship.
     
  18. Silverbantam

    Supporter

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    Couldn’t someone buy Rupp’s share and just takeover control of the club because Edin is a minority shareholder ?
     
    Bronco likes this.
  19. Onside

    ⚽ P.L.25/26 Entrant Supporter

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    @Dennis@Dennis thank you for explaining this to me and please don’t apologise for the length of the post, not everything goes into little sound bites. We have an ongoing cash flow problem that is unlikely to end anytime soon. The only way to end the roundabout, would be an injection of cash of £1.5 million? £750k to come in on budget and £750k so we can save the season ticket sales money for the season it was intended?

    Although the outlook is not good as described, R&R are not doing anything different from previous owners, or in fact other companies who have cash flow problems.
     
    rmbenson007 likes this.
  20. Fordy117

    Fordy117 Just call me Mr Flip-Flop!
    Bubbles car wash

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    Rupps and Edin still here? Get it sold already
     
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